Fuller wrap-up

[PastorDaniel]

Many feel that they must hide it due to condemnation or reprecussion from their church.

But they don't feel safe enough or want to leave their church.

[forestwalker]

OK, I'm game Forestwalker.

The word "liberal" has an actual meaning in "Fuller is a liberal institution" and is a quite serious charge to level against a seminary. The "liberal" in "they have liberal views on immigration", if it means anything at all, means something quite different than the usage above.

[Full Quiver]

and is a quite serious charge to level against a seminary

Call security then.

[Pastor Gary]

OK, I'm game Forestwalker.

The word "liberal" has an actual meaning in "Fuller is a liberal institution" and is a quite serious charge to level against a seminary. The "liberal" in "they have liberal views on immigration", if it means anything at all, means something quite different than the usage above.

If, by "liberal", you mean "not specifically Republican," then you're probably correct in your use of the term... people at Fuller, both staff and students, span the Theological and political gamut.

[Full Quiver]

Republican could very well mean liberal if you ask me since Republican does not mean conservative. If Fuller supports illegal immigration then they are liberal and could be viewed as accessories to the crime. I suppose you meant Fuller students and not staff but in my opinion and experience if you break the law in a public way you could loose your standing at your job and or school so if the students are publicly supporting law breakers then they should be reprimanded.

[DeWayneTN]

Detective FullQuiver, do you ever eat at Mexican restaurants?

[Pastor Gary]

Republican could very well mean liberal if you ask me since Republican does not mean conservative. If Fuller supports illegal immigration then they are liberal and could be viewed as accessories to the crime. I suppose you meant Fuller students and not staff but in my opinion and experience if you break the law in a public way you could loose your standing at your job and or school so if the students are publicly supporting law breakers then they should be reprimanded.

...unless you are a person who feels called of God to defend he poor and you feel called of God to rail against what you believe to be unjust and unrighteous immigration policies of a human government...

That's not my view, but it is a view held by some.

If you, personally, felt that your government was operating in a way that opposed justice as you felt God viewed justice, would you side with the civil government or disobey them to obey (in your view) God?

To put it in a broader context: was noted Theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer right or wrong for participating in a plot to kill Adolph Hitler?

[forestwalker]

OK, I'm game Forestwalker.

The word "liberal" has an actual meaning in "Fuller is a liberal institution" and is a quite serious charge to level against a seminary. The "liberal" in "they have liberal views on immigration", if it means anything at all, means something quite different than the usage above.

If, by "liberal", you mean "not specifically Republican," then you're probably correct in your use of the term... people at Fuller, both staff and students, span the Theological and political gamut.

I mean that to call a seminary "liberal" means something pretty specific: that it does not hold to biblical inerrancy or infallibility; that it's doubtful or even scornful of the miraculous in the Bible, Church tradition, and the Christian experience; that it doesn't hold to the exclusivist claims of Christianity and is syncretistic in its approach to other faiths; etc. Think mainline churches, Bishop Spong, Marcus Borg, Dom Crossan, etc.

As you suggest, "liberal" in a political sense is mushy in meaning. Perhaps it's fair to describe your fellow students as "liberal" because of their views on immigration. Because the meaning of "liberal" is so different when applied to a seminary, though, calling Fuller a liberal seminary because some or most of its students hold a "liberal" political view is very, very inaccurate.

[Full Quiver]

Pastor Gary, we are to obey the laws of our land unless they prevent us from obeying the Lord. Immigration laws do not get in the way of our faith unless of course you are on the illegal side. Illegal aliens are law breakers.

Yes Dwayne I do. Go ahead and assume but I aint marching in the street with a Mexican flag.

[Pastor Gary]

Was noted Theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer right or wrong for participating in a plot to kill Adolph Hitler?

[RamboPreacher]

Was noted Theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer right or wrong for participating in a plot to kill Adolph Hitler?

I don't think so (though I know this wasn't directed to me ) My great...Grandfather was part of one of the many so-called plots, as the voice on the street. In sincerity he preached that Hitler was "THE" antichrist, and a harbinger of Armageddon. (how far off topic are we now? )

[dolfan]

Gary, we are to obey the laws of our land unless they prevent us from obeying the Lord. Immigration laws do not get in the way of our faith unless of course you are on the illegal side. Illegal aliens are law breakers.

First, I agree that illegal aliens are lawbreakers, and I agree that they cost us a lot of money in a lot of different ways. I also agree that the government owes us a duty to control immigration by forcing all entrants to come here legally if they come and to administer the law against those who are here illegally.

Second, I also believe that biblical history teaches us to have mercy and love to aliens among us who want to come here and do what we do. The question is begged, "What do we do?", and further, "Who's we?" We who believe and follow Jesus must have a different personal approach to immigrants, a proactive one IMO, that helps them find ways to prosper where they are. For Christians, prosperity necessarily means eternal hope in Christ AND immediate material relief. There's no escaping that overarching duty by citing the laws of the land. They are not in conflict with one another; we are not the police of our neighbors -- and aliens are our neighbors. The government may act as it will, and we should freely express that will through the political process. But, when it comes to where the rubber meets the road, where we are each day, the law of Lord is to "love thy neighbor" even if the law of the land is "he should be here on a visa."

And, there's the issue of justice. What is justice to the alien? There's legal justice, an accounting for wrongs done according to civil law. Then, there's moral justice -- God's justice, if you will -- that requires us to lift the heads of, defend and supply the oppressed. Granted, much of their 'oppression' is their own fault by being here when significant parts of the country simply don't want to see them. But, we're not the majority, we're the authority. We are authorized and commanded of God to do certain things to, with and for our neighbors whereever and however we find them. Those certain things include feeding them, helping them find employment and means to live, scooping them into our own folds, etc., and loving them. And, where voices of hatred are directed against them, we should defend them with equally adamant voices of love. Not equally loud, not boisterous, not attention-seeking, but diligent and firm voices consistent with the meekness and authority we see in Jesus' actions and words in the gospels.

[Full Quiver]

Where in the Scripture does it say I am to help a law breaker find a job?
Why don't the "missionaries" go into Mexico and teach these folks to take care of themselves, build their nation both economically and politically, and then they won't feel the need to come here illegally? It seems that we are satisfied with Mexico being a Catholic nation and we love to count illegal immigrants in America as members of our denominations.

Sure everyone is our neighbor just as Hitler was someone's neighbor at one time yet PG and Rambo are talking about "Christians" plotting to kill him.

BTW, If God wanted him dead couldn't he do that Himself? It's sad and all but Hitler was not the first man on Earth to exterminate Jews but the ones recorded in the Bible get a pass because God plainly says it happened because Israel was backslid. My how we forget that today.

[paul]

Where in the Scripture does it say I am to help a law breaker find a job?
Why don't the "missionaries" go into Mexico and teach these folks to take care of themselves, build their nation both economically and politically, and then they won't feel the need to come here illegally? It seems that we are satisfied with Mexico being a Catholic nation and we love to count illegal immigrants in America as members of our denominations.

The immediate response to your question is very simple. The American Church spends about 5 cents of the dollar given it for missions. Because the american church has become so ingrossed with its monuments and buildings and tech equipment there is very little to send missionaries anywhere except across the street.

Second: the american church generally see
s itself as the Body of Christ apart from all those from other countries. Thus statements such as The African Church, The Mexico Church etc.....

Perhaps you lack an understanding of developing countries and what missionarie's role and purpose are.

The greatest mistakes made by missionaries is the very one you are espousing. Missionaries are not to involve themselves in the political arena of forgien countries, this is the reason so many have been expelled. It is not their place to build any nation. Their responsibility is to share the gospel, teach the word, build the kingdom of God. to help equip men and women to spread the gospel.

I do not encourage illegal immigration. But I do know one thing. If it was me on the other side of the boarder and I had a family. BY God, I would be the first in the Rio Grande every night if necessary.

[Pastor Gary]

I understand you, Danny, because I once lived in the same black and white world. You have escaped some of that thinking when you left the exclusivist church you once argued for and moved to Cedar Ridge; let me gently suggest that the political world is equally colorful and not as "us" and "them" as you would make it.

Let me ask you, and this is not a trick question or an attempt to trap you: have you ever served in the military? traveled outside the U.S.?