Yet ANOTHER dead horse beating

[Poimen]

What God joins together, let not man put asunder. The question in my mind is not at the end of the "marriage", but at the beginning of it. How do we know that God joins every two people that enter an earthly covenant. Does God join every couple that join themselves together?

In the context of the question I take two people and every couple to be a reference to individuals free to marry, ideally both of which have never been married before. If that be the case, then yes, God joins all of them as one flesh.

Two atheists do not take a covenant before God therefore, I do not see God being a third party to that covenant. Not saying that I'm sure on this, just sharing with you some of my thoughts.

Yes, and two wed sinners that produce a child, what of them? Does their sinful condition change the divinely ordained results of sexual union? We don't call it procreation for nor reason.

Is God not the author of life? Is He not involved in the creation of that child, even between these two sinners?

I submit that in the same way that God is a party to the creation of life, without condoning or partaking in the sinfulness of the participants, likewise God partakes in the union of two individuals in marriage whether they be believers or not.

If an unbeliever marries, divorces, and several years later marries a Christian man and becomes saved, are they bound to a marriage covenant that God wasn't included in in the first place.

Can you show me a passage of Scripture that shows God isn't included in the marital union?

Isn't the whole point of Jesus referring to what God has joined togther not being put asunder by man implicit of divine involvement in the institution of marriage itself?

When does God join two people....at a ceremony with a preacher, justice of the peace, notary public, or boat captain?

Jesus answered that one for us.

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

In the act of joining to a wife God works to produce one flesh of the twain in marriage. So, in other words, when a man and a woman unite in marriage it is God that joins them togther as one flesh. Thus Jesus states as a general truth that all marriage involves a divine act of union. No wonder then that He concludes that man is intruding into things to great for Him when he attempts to separate that which God has joined.

Also, as an aside, this statement by Christ (repeated by Paul in Ephesians) is the NT bedrock teaching true marriage as a lifelong, monogamous, heterosexual, covenant relationship.

[one love]

Pastorpbs and one love,

Why not discuss my last post?

I am sorry shellie was not on purpose. I kinda bailed on this for certain reason i will give to my vie won this after church as long as this migraine goes away. We battled this on utr me and stevenson for days he ahd very close t the same arguement.

[Shellie]

Poimen wrote:

Can you show me a passage of Scripture that shows God isn't included in the marital union?

How about when God told them to put away their foreign wives?

[Gerald Creasy]

How about when God told them to put away their foreign wives?

I like the part where the Prophet of God told the men to divorce their wives and it pleased God.

And even the part where God says he divorced himself from Israel.

Very strange if you hold to the belief "God hates divorce."

[Mike Vande]

How about when God told them to put away their foreign wives?

I like the part where the Prophet of God told the men to divorce their wives and it pleased God.

And even the part where God says he divorced himself from Israel.

Very strange if you hold to the belief "God hates divorce."

He hates it, alright, but even He sees it as necessary sometimes. You also notice He never says "after you divorce those foreign wives, you have to stay single forever after, too. Gotta send the right message about marriage, you know."

[RamboPreacher]

Listen,
You all are wayyyyyyy tooooooo deeeeeeeppppp for me on this one@!!!

I am a grace guy.

I don't know who is going to hell and who ain't......but WE still can't be the Holy Spirit conviction.

Poiman.....you are such a great man....you seem to have MOST things in order. I know some of you are products of your training.....and I certainly believe you have some grasp of the scripture. But your exegesis of this is totally wrong.

I strongly advise all of you to be careful because when this comes to your family, and it will , you will have much crow to eat......and it ain't good food.

I will tell you as you have told Rambo....I love you all....but enough is enough. This condemnation needs to stop. Let people work out their own
SALVATION in fear and trembling.....let the Holy Spirit enlighten them ...and let them live at peace with all men...

And to quote that great theologian Forrest Gump..."life is like a box of chocolates" And that's all I got to say about that.

I like chocolate.
I don't like "fake" chocolate though (chocolate cake, or donuts as example).

Bacon - now that's a whole other issue!

thank you, BTW. If I were there, I would probably be attending your church. (not that, that means anything, but just as an FYI. )

Sighhhh............

I'll tell ya what boys. Just send our way those whom you don't deem saved. Problem solved. That way, they won't spot or wrinkle your gown.

I would go, but herck-shoot - I gotta have me all 4 seasons!

Poimen, I ask that you please forgive me. I do not mean to assume and prejudge you. I really do desire to allow you to search and believe and walk in the light that you can. I hold no hard feelings and hope that you don't either.

I do just ask that those that believe I am "wrong" (my only wife and I that have both been married previously and our spouses all are still alive) that you consider the issue as personal and not stand so far back from it; and offer us the dignity and respect that we just might also have a restored relationship with God as one of His Children, that we just might be part of His body and just might be part of His bride.

remember - Happy, happy, joy, joy!! (and pass the bacon)

[Mister Ed]

I don’t want to take too much time here and don’t want to get in on the discussion. I have been observing something I want to make mention of.

I think a lot of us got it wrong when we thought that John 10:16 was, and or is, the flagship verse of the COGOP and TCOG. I think that verse needs to be replaced with Romans 7:3. Since this subject was resurrected after about 4 years it has already drawn almost 1100 views and 125 replies in 4 days with 9 pages. I noticed when the original thread was being attached there were more than 37,000 views (if I remember correctly) and I don’t remember the replies.

When John 10:16 was being discussed last month there were just over 1000 views and 57 replies in about 30 days and 4 pages.

And it seems that the COGOP had a lot less backlash from dropping the one fold doctrine than it is getting from dropping the D&R doctrine as official teachings. Seems that a lot of folk are more interested in not being in Heaven with someone who was in a D&R situation in this life, than they were in not being the only ones to make up, or be in, the Bride.

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[Mike Vande]

...Seems that a lot of folk are more interested in not being in Heaven with someone who was in a D&R situation in this life, than they were in not being the only ones to make up, or be in, the Bride.

Too bad for them.

[Poimen]

Poimen wrote:

Can you show me a passage of Scripture that shows God isn't included in the marital union?

How about when God told them to put away their foreign wives?

Can you cite the passage in mind? I'm having difficulty locating it.

[Poimen]

I like the part where the Prophet of God told the men to divorce their wives and it pleased God.

Like with Shellie I am having difficulty finding this passage as well. Can you cite it please?

And even the part where God says he divorced himself from Israel.

Very strange if you hold to the belief "God hates divorce."

Indeed. But he did not remarry! In fact, He will be reconciled with her at the 2nd coming.

As for God hating divorce, He does. Generally it is an evil thing. However, God does permit it in some cases, as I have already affirmed in previous posts. What I have yet to see is any NT that actually permits remarriage while one's spouse lives.

[Poimen]

Poimen, I ask that you please forgive me. I do not mean to assume and prejudge you. I really do desire to allow you to search and believe and walk in the light that you can. I hold no hard feelings and hope that you don't either.

We just might also have a restored relationship with God as one of His Children, that we just might be part of His body and just might be part of His bride.

No problem! No hard feelings, brother.

Likewise if I have offended or wounded you I ask your forgiveness. That is not my desire.

And, for the record, as I said previously I don't doubt that there exists many born again believers who are on their way to heaven that may be in an otherwise adulterous marriage but are unaware of it being such (either out of innocence, ignorance, or an honest hearted different interpretation of the Word of God).

[paul]

I like the part where the Prophet of God told the men to divorce their wives and it pleased God.

Like with Shellie I am having difficulty finding this passage as well. Can you cite it please?

And even the part where God says he divorced himself from Israel.

Very strange if you hold to the belief "God hates divorce."

Indeed. But he did not remarry! In fact, He will be reconciled with her at the 2nd coming.

As for God hating divorce, He does. Generally it is an evil thing. However, God does permit it in some cases, as I have already affirmed in previous posts. What I have yet to see is any NT that actually permits remarriage while one's spouse lives.

So are we gentiles just a fling ?

[Poimen]

Poiman.....you are such a great man....you seem to have MOST things in order. I know some of you are products of your training.....and I certainly believe you have some grasp of the scripture. But your exegesis of this is totally wrong.

Thank you for the kind words of acknowledgment. I respect your advice and the difference in views we hold regarding this passage of Scripture.

Thankfully, perfect understanding of the teachings of Scripture is not required in order to go to heaven.

[Poimen]

So are we gentiles just a fling ?

I didn't expect that implication. It made me chuckle.

Now, to attempt to answer-- no.
It makes us the bride of Christ. Israel is the wife of God (the Father).

[Mike Vande]

Poimen wrote:

Can you show me a passage of Scripture that shows God isn't included in the marital union?

How about when God told them to put away their foreign wives?

Can you cite the passage in mind? I'm having difficulty locating it.

Book of Nehemiah, last two or 3 chapters, where Nehemiah stis down "astonied"...