Source on Wine in Bible Times

[Poimen]

We had this discussion in sunday school several years back. There were several former drinkers involved in the discussion, including one recovering alcoholic. They all agreed, 100%, that there was no way the taste buds would have even registered grape juice if they had been drinking alcoholic wine to begin with.

Of course, to me, I have had a hard time understanding the purpose of a Nazarite vow if God's people were not drinking fermented drink. Why would God have told them to stay away from it only for the time they were choosing to take the vow (Numbers 6: 1 -20).

It's not that they did not have and drink fermented wine. It's that normally even fermented wine was sufficiently diluted so as not to induce any level of drunkeness when normally consumed. So, there normal consumption was virtually a non-acoholic drink. It was just as if it was not intoxciating at all unless excessively consumed.

Historic records show anywhere from at least 3 parts water to as much as 20 parts water for every one part wine. To put it modern terms for every 1 ounce of wine there would be anywhere from 3 ounces to 20 ounces of water mixed with it. For a better understanding of the practicality or purpose of this review the article linked in the initial reply.

[CantBCoy]

This may add nothing to the discussion, but it might. Whenever we (Christians) begin to discuss such issues as wine consumption and whether it is or isn't allowable I often wonder why we leave so much to speculation. I say that because don't we have people alive today, Jewish Rabbis, that have devoted their life to the Law and the Torah and could tell us what the customs were and are for events such as a marriage celebration? I'd love to hear what some of these men would have to say instead of getting so much speculation as to what the customs were/are. Just my 2 cents. Anybody ever spent any time with someone like this concerning this or similair issues?

[Pastor Bill]

CantBCoy, we can't do that, modern Jewish Rabbis do consume alcohol, and would consider this question laughable!

[CantBCoy]

If that's the case then perhaps they have a reason to find it laughable. That's why my question still stands has anybody asked?

[MrDanger]

There are several sources. One of my favorites is www.followtherabbi.com

Excellent resource for customs, not hearsay or speculation.

[Pastor Bill]

We had this discussion in sunday school several years back. There were several former drinkers involved in the discussion, including one recovering alcoholic. They all agreed, 100%, that there was no way the taste buds would have even registered grape juice if they had been drinking alcoholic wine to begin with.

Of course, to me, I have had a hard time understanding the purpose of a Nazarite vow if God's people were not drinking fermented drink. Why would God have told them to stay away from it only for the time they were choosing to take the vow (Numbers 6: 1 -20).

It's not that they did not have and drink fermented wine. It's that normally even fermented wine was sufficiently diluted so as not to induce any level of drunkeness when normally consumed. So, there normal consumption was virtually a non-acoholic drink. It was just as if it was not intoxciating at all unless excessively consumed.

Historic records show anywhere from at least 3 parts water to as much as 20 parts water for every one part wine. To put it modern terms for every 1 ounce of wine there would be anywhere from 3 ounces to 20 ounces of water mixed with it. For a better understanding of the practicality or purpose of this review the article linked in the initial reply.

Again Poimen, it's difficult to really base much on this when first we don't know how strong the wine was in the first place (diluting with 3 parts water gives a different effect when you are diluting stronger/weaker wines) and secondly the text clearly implies their judgment would be impaired by the drinking of the wine.

The fact that they did make non-alcoholic "wine" (which the resources seem to point toward the early church on that more than the culture at the time of this particular wedding, or even at the time of the last supper) or that they often diluted wine, really doesn't change the fact that this story clearly implies they were drinking alcohol, and that Christ created an alcoholic beverage (however strong or weak that may have been).

While this contradicts the total abstinence from alcohol stance many take, it must be weighed with other scriptures as well, that seem to agree, that some consumption of alcohol was/is acceptable, BUT in our modern American culture of excess drinking, wisdom should be considered as well, and abstaining may still be the best choice, just not a legalistic requirement.

[Paully_44]

This may add nothing to the discussion, but it might. Whenever we (Christians) begin to discuss such issues as wine consumption and whether it is or isn't allowable I often wonder why we leave so much to speculation. I say that because don't we have people alive today, Jewish Rabbis, that have devoted their life to the Law and the Torah and could tell us what the customs were and are for events such as a marriage celebration? I'd love to hear what some of these men would have to say instead of getting so much speculation as to what the customs were/are. Just my 2 cents. Anybody ever spent any time with someone like this concerning this or similair issues?

I took a World Religion course in college, and we visited different "houses of worship" and one was a Jewish synagogue. Pretty interesting to sit in on. After the service, we had a wine toast. Great tasting and I was told one of the rabbi's made it, definately not watered down nor had the alchol removed.

Not sure if it was coincidence or karma or what, but that night I was also rushed to the ER and had my appendix removed.

[Pastor Gary]

This may add nothing to the discussion, but it might. Whenever we (Christians) begin to discuss such issues as wine consumption and whether it is or isn't allowable I often wonder why we leave so much to speculation. I say that because don't we have people alive today, Jewish Rabbis, that have devoted their life to the Law and the Torah and could tell us what the customs were and are for events such as a marriage celebration? I'd love to hear what some of these men would have to say instead of getting so much speculation as to what the customs were/are. Just my 2 cents. Anybody ever spent any time with someone like this concerning this or similair issues?

We have had Passover Seders at our church before as a teaching method, and I had a Jewish friend act as a consultant. He taught me some of the prayers (Baruch atoy Adonai Eloheynu...) and made sure we had everything set up properly. He was AGHAST that we were profaning the seder by using Welch's instead of "real wine." I tried to explain our tea-totaler position and rationale, and our Christian interpretation of the Haggadah, and he was MORE offended that we would represent the blood of Jesus with a lesser subsittute, weaker and inferior.

[Poimen]

Again Poimen, it's difficult to really base much on this when first we don't know how strong the wine was in the first place (diluting with 3 parts water gives a different effect when you are diluting stronger/weaker wines)

A bit, yes. But not beyond sound estimation with a little effort and study.
Also, fermented wine then was not as refined or potent as modern wines.

and secondly the text clearly implies their judgment would be impaired by the drinking of the wine.

Well now, wasn't it you who early was arguing there was no real reason to believe this passage was addressing excessive drinking? That it could have been to a small a supply to begin with?

The fact that they did make non-alcoholic "wine" (which the resources seem to point toward the early church on that more than the culture at the time of this particular wedding, or even at the time of the last supper) or that they often diluted wine, really doesn't change the fact that this story clearly implies they were drinking alcohol, and that Christ created an alcoholic beverage (however strong or weak that may have been).

1st, you obviously did not give the article a thorough read if you simply gather that the early Christian era is all that is accounted for in what methods were available and in use among the various ancient cultures and their wineries.

2ndly, a fermented beverage, when properly diluted, was essentially made non-alcoholic. As Dolfan pointed out earlier the absorption rate of such mixed wines would not produce intoxication unless excessively consumed.
So, for all practical intents and purposes such a drink was not alcoholic. The fact is the practice of the day took what was otherwise deemed vile by even Barbarian cultures (to drink undiluted wine or strong drink) and made it into an acceptable form for normal use.

Hardly anything comparable to modern day alcoholic beverages and their consumption (except maybe for O'Doul's -- whose purpose is to produce an alcoholic like drink without the side effects,)

While this contradicts the total abstinence from alcohol stance many take,

It only contradicts in the technical sense. In the practical sense and through the lens of culture and historic record (Jewish and Gentile) it actually seves as a practical example against drinking alcohol.

[Poimen]

If that's the case then perhaps they have a reason to find it laughable. That's why my question still stands has anybody asked?

The popular position today is for fermented and.or undiluted wine (ideally in "moderation"). Of course Rabbinic Judaism is a bit like protestantism, and the modern dominant views do not reflect the varied views and teachings among the rabbis, in the Talmud, etc.

I have read Jewish sources (both modern and ancient) and find them likewise divided over the issue. However I found reference (and have subsequently lost it, as mentioned in my initial post) to more ancient Talmudic prescription against the practice, citing that it would render one ceremonially unclean, which is also why a priest was forbidden to partake while on duty.

[Pastor Bill]

This may add nothing to the discussion, but it might. Whenever we (Christians) begin to discuss such issues as wine consumption and whether it is or isn't allowable I often wonder why we leave so much to speculation. I say that because don't we have people alive today, Jewish Rabbis, that have devoted their life to the Law and the Torah and could tell us what the customs were and are for events such as a marriage celebration? I'd love to hear what some of these men would have to say instead of getting so much speculation as to what the customs were/are. Just my 2 cents. Anybody ever spent any time with someone like this concerning this or similair issues?

We have had Passover Seders at our church before as a teaching method, and I had a Jewish friend act as a consultant. He taught me some of the prayers (Baruch atoy Adonai Eloheynu...) and made sure we had everything set up properly. He was AGHAST that we were profaning the seder by using Welch's instead of "real wine." I tried to explain our tea-totaler position and rationale, and our Christian interpretation of the Haggadah, and he was MORE offended that we would represent the blood of Jesus with a lesser subsittute, weaker and inferior.

Yes, I've heard that as well, wine with age gets better, where juice spoils. The blood of Christ draws us ever closer as time passes, and does not spoil or go bad.

[Pastor Bill]

Again Poimen, it's difficult to really base much on this when first we don't know how strong the wine was in the first place (diluting with 3 parts water gives a different effect when you are diluting stronger/weaker wines)

A bit, yes. But not beyond sound estimation with a little effort and study.
Also, fermented wine then was not as refined or potent as modern wines.

and secondly the text clearly implies their judgment would be impaired by the drinking of the wine.

Well now, wasn't it you who early was arguing there was no real reason to believe this passage was addressing excessive drinking? That it could have been to a small a supply to begin with?

You are correct, I did include that as a possibility, but there is a difference in assuming all are excessively drinking, and recognizing the presence and effect of alcohol

The fact that they did make non-alcoholic "wine" (which the resources seem to point toward the early church on that more than the culture at the time of this particular wedding, or even at the time of the last supper) or that they often diluted wine, really doesn't change the fact that this story clearly implies they were drinking alcohol, and that Christ created an alcoholic beverage (however strong or weak that may have been).

1st, you obviously did not give the article a thorough read if you simply gather that the early Christian era is all that is accounted for in what methods were available and in use among the various ancient cultures and their wineries.

2ndly, a fermented beverage, when properly diluted, was essentially made non-alcoholic. As Dolfan pointed out earlier the absorption rate of such mixed wines would not produce intoxication unless excessively consumed.
So, for all practical intents and purposes such a drink was not alcoholic. The fact is the practice of the day took what was otherwise deemed vile by even Barbarian cultures (to drink undiluted wine or strong drink) and made it into an acceptable form for normal use.

Hardly anything comparable to modern day alcoholic beverages and their consumption (except maybe for O'Doul's -- whose purpose is to produce an alcoholic like drink without the side effects,)

can't agree with you on that one, wines made today using the same practices have enough alcohol that even when diluted would still constitute an alcoholic beverage. I have friends and family who have made wine, in fact it is stronger than some wine that is sold today. (notice I said wine, not compared to other stronger alcoholic beverages)

While this contradicts the total abstinence from alcohol stance many take,

It only contradicts in the technical sense. In the practical sense and through the lens of culture and historic record (Jewish and Gentile) it actually seves as a practical example against drinking alcohol.

Wow, that is a real jump, it contradicts it in the technical sense, but for practical purposes we ignore the alcohol and preach against it?

They diluted it, many alcoholic beverages are diluted either when produced or when served, that doesn't change the fact that it is alcohol. If you want to preach total abstinence, go ahead, but basing it on these scriptures and this research seems very flimsy.

[one love]

for all the "pro wine" people here do you use real wine during communion or grape juice? If not real wine why do you choose to go against your biblical belief. If Jesus used real (fermented) wine should you not also?

Wow, was there anyone here that was "pro wine"?

That's just plain wrong, since you can't confidently discuss the truth of the situation, you result to accusations and twisting the words of those you don't agree with. come on now, that's just sad.

HOLD ON!!!!!
that was not my intention at all. You are assuming yourself. "PRO wine" was implying that you are believing that they used real fermented wine, you are "pro wine" in that thinking. NOt that you want to drink i did not accuse anyone. SOrry for the confusion> I fully understand what you mean. I surely can "confidently discuss the truth" you are now being insulting. If someone does not feel you should use real fermented wine it does not mean they think you are a drunk.

So to clear This up, to the "pro wine theology regarding what they used in the last supper"

BTW gerald NOAH was drunk, as was Lot I agree one hundred percent it was not grape juice

[one love]

Just a quick disclaimer...before anyone gets the wrong idea...I'm not pro-alcohol....I'm pro-Bible and walking in the light as I covenanted to do so many years ago.

I'm a truth seeker and I don't want to accept what anyone says unless it is SOLIDLY backed up by the Word...Not Tradition or opinion.

AMEN! Don't drink, never have, and don't encourage it... HOWEVER: when we feel it so necessary to support our opposition to drinking that we try to explain away history and the whole of scripture by some convoluted attempt to de-ferment Jesus' miracle, we look like a bunch of flat-earth, holocaust-denying, tin-foil-hat wearing rubes.

(I mean that as no offense to any individual here or elsewhere.)

from the article

This practice is confirmed both in rabbinical and Christian literature. For example, the Halakat Gedalat, the earliest compendium of the Talmud, says: "One may press out a cluster of grapes and pronounce the kiddush [blessing pronounced at the consecration of the Sabbath or a festival] over the juice, since the juice of the grape is considered wine in connection with the law of the Nazarite."15

The apocryphal Acts and Martyrdom of Matthew, a document which circulated in the second and third centuries of the Christian era, attests to the use of freshly pressed juice of grapes in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper: "Bring as an offering the holy bread; and, having pressed three clusters from the vine into a cup, communicate with me, as the Lord Jesus showed us how to offer up when he rose from the dead on the third day."16 This is a clear and positive testimony not only of the custom of making grape juice by pressing grapes, but also of using unfermented grape juice in the celebration of the Lord’s Suppe

so you consider this to be impossible? Show me in the bible where it says they used fermented wine. Show me how you can prove the last supper was not squeezed unfermented wine. I will be waiting. Pastor Daniel since you only use scripture please not with such verses

Again One Love, where did anyone say this was not possible, or was never used. The only thing that was stated was that all wine was NOT unfermented, Christ's miracle of water into wine implies fermented wine, and many other scriptures show wine to be fermented (including some encouraging it's use).

All your post shows is that in the early church there were some that used unfermented juice, and that is fine, most of us still do this today, but that does not mean it is a requirement, nor does it mean that Christ did or did not use it.

may have missed something here sorry

[one love]

Could somebody show me the grape juice -

Ex 29:40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.

Yayin (yah` yin) : Noun, Masculine: Strong : # 3196

1. wine

KJV Word Usage and Count

wine - 138 ; banqueting - 1 ; winebibber -1


Nu 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

Shekar (shay-kawr`) : Noun, Masculine : Strong # 7941

1. strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor

KJV Word Usage and Count

strong drink - 21; strong wine - 1; drunkard 1


Ne 10:39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God.

Tiyrowsh (tee-roshe`) : Noun, Masculine : Strong # 8492

1. wine, fresh or new wine, must, freshly pressed wine

KJV Word Usage and Count

1. wine - 38

These are the three Hebrew words that are translated into "wine" in the Old Testament. There is absolutely no reference to grape juice.


TW

THANK YOU, TW!!! It totally aggravates me when people try to twist around the clear meaning of a word that we all know the definition to. WINE is not the same a GRAPE JUICE. The ancient Hebrews didn't drink WELCH's.

We Holiness people have a CULTURAL bias against alcohol, and that's fine. I don't like the stuff and won't drink it and I think it's a bad idea for anyone else to, but...

it's not biblical to say that its sinful to drink alcohol. Getting intoxicated is a dangerous thing and can and will lead to sin. But just the act of ingesting an alcoholic beverage is no sin.

then you should use wine instead of grape juice.
Wine was used for ages it was not until 1784 when Dr. Benjamin Rush of Philadelphia warned that distilled liquor could injure health. Then the evangelism or the " Nineteenth-century American evangelicals" influenced by revivals and perfectionism that began movements for social reform, began to call not only for temperance but for total abstinence. Most all Protestant churches after 1840 required members to have total abstinence from alcohol and use grape juce for communion. Catholics did not follow this trend.
However I do feel the wine Jesus used was un-fermented and feel that this is the correct way for many reasons. I also wonder why, this is not an attack, so many here dont have an issue with the total absitence teaching of your organization. DO you feel it should be changed or it may have for all I know