Paul Thorn Blasts MS Youth Camp and COGOP

[Dr. Ron]

I applaud anyone who works from a position of victory. However, we have a tendency to overspiritualize some things and are willing to "close our eyes" to many unhealthy things. Just because something happened in the past, doesn't mean it has no meaning or bearing in the now.

My wife attended a couple of Ms. camps and hated them. Does that mean that eveyone there hated them ? Of course not. Those particular camps did not provide the things she needed spiritually or socially at the time. It doesn't mean that they were not significant to others.

What that means is, we sometimes have the attitude that if something has been special to us....then those who berate it or don't agree with it or whatever must just be "unspiritual" or something of that nature.

Overgeneralization is common among Christians. Ladies retreats for example. While many women "live" for them, I lost some ladies because they were (in their view) were humiliated in a ladies retreat. Does that mean they should cease? NO, it means that no activity meets the needs of everyone. It can't happen. And for those who are offened, hurt, humiliated, put off , or whatever, they should not be looked at as less spiritual as those who "live" for that activity. And a lot of that has to do with temperament.

[jdavis]

Blessedmom wrote:

You know this is weird how all of this is coming about.
I have been reading a book The Invisible War- It's on spiritual warfare. So often before a HUGE move of God, Satan attacks with things to trip us up, or throw things at us to blur our vision. Ex. Last year I was pee-wee camp evangelist. I was getting everything together and right in the middle of preparing for this HUGE time, my grandad got really sick and after some time passed away. I spent so much time at the hospital. Camp was great but looking back I see how the devil "tried" to get our focus somewhere else. Anyway, prayers were answered and kids were saved, sanctified, and filled with the holy ghost! To God be the glory!!!!!!

I hope that I misunderstood you. What it sounds like you are saying is that Satan made your grandfather sick, so sick that he eventually died, in order to get you distracted from your role as camp evangelist for peewee camp. I don't think that Satan has the power to orchestrate the death of a loved one in order to hinder you. Isn't it more likely that the loss of your grandfather and the preparation for camp were two life events that happened to coincide and if anything, the enemy used your time of grieving for your grandfather to try to discourage you.

I agree with Dr. Ron that we try to overspiritualize things. We could blame Thorn's criticism on Satan and some diabolical scheme to hinder camp or we could allow for the possiblilty that God is speaking to us through the memories of a 12 year old boy in order to help us change our approach and ministry today.

[EagerBeaver]

I thank God I grew up in Washington state, where the spiritual environment there is a bit different than the COGOP all around the rest of the country -- and as a result all my camp experiences were arguably the best days of my life, save for a couple isolated incidents that you gotta admit, in such a spiritually oriented environment, are bound to happen.

That being said, let's boycott Paul Thorn's music.

[Mat]

removed

[turbotim]

All my camp experiences were arguably the best days of my life. I absolutely loved camp and that's why I'm still working in camp.

[dolfan]

Was trying to dramatize the lose of religious freedom somewhat “over the top” in a youth camp? Maybe so. Is there a more “enlightened” way to tell kids that there are places you can be killed for what you believe without damaging their fragile self? Perhaps.

Oh, you were serious.

Somewhat over the top?!? The account was they fired a shotgun and faked an execution. Scared these kids horribly, and scarred one of them permanently it appears. Somewhat over the top?? This isn't about illustrating how lucky Americans are to have religious freedom of expression. If that's the lesson, have a missionary or foreign believer in one of those dark places speak to them about it. This wasn't some illustrated sermon. This was a stupid, stupid, stupid idea. Reckless and stupid, irresponsible and foolishly stupid. Not just "unenlightened", but completely dark space between the ears stupid. Somebody thought they'd get applauded for innovation.

Did you ever hear of Stanley Milgram? Probably not. An Ivy League professor. Was doing research on obeying authority, got the bright idea that he could get people to do physical harm to others by suggesting to them that they must do it. So, he set up an experiment. He had a guy who was in on it pretend to be a student to whom the poor sap in the experiment was to administer increasingly stong electric shocks if the 'student' got answers to a question wrong. As the wrong answers increased, the voltage did (only there was no voltage, the whole thing was a ruse). Eventually, the 'student' would spaz out while an authority figure "conducting the experiment" would coax the shocker into continuing the exercise with varying degrees of insistence. Lots of the subjects of the experiments went right on shocking, some while crying, some against their own judgment, just because they were being told to do it.

The lesson was supposed to demonstrate how people like Nazi war criminals tried to lay the blame for their crimes on their superiors, that theirs was a truly natural response and that we all will do evil if we can shift the blame. The PROBLEM was that the experiment was, "somewhat over the top", the subjects were not initially told after the experiment that they'd been in on an experiment at all. Many of them were crying and upset about what they'd done (although, many of them never blinked about it, either). Milgram went down in history and psych textbooks as a monster of sorts (although, he went on to have a successful career). His peers roundly criticised him for the methods he used, and his name is always mentioned with people who do science the bad way.

My point: If Milgram only had grown people faking electric shocks and is still notorious for it almost 50 years later, what impact do you think that faking a shotgun execution would have on a group of CHILDREN. Do ya think it would be unusual for one of them to look back on it as horrifying and just unnecessary and cruel??? I'd be surprised, honestly, if most of those present didn't feel that way today, and for those who didn't, I'd be a little bit worried about letting them around my child. It takes a cavern inside of someone's head to justify that kind of stunt.

[DaJudge]

I thank God I grew up in Washington state, where the spiritual environment there is a bit different than the COGOP all around the rest of the country -- and as a result all my camp experiences were arguably the best days of my life, save for a couple isolated incidents that you gotta admit, in such a spiritually oriented environment, are bound to happen.

My camp experiences were some of the best of my life too, Beav. Don't over generalize. It's not important what state you went to camp in, whether it be deep south or Pacific northwest. Camp experiences are good or bad based upon who the camp directors and staff are. If you get idiots who do mock executions, then you probably will have a bad experience. On the other hand, if you have dedicated servant cabin leaders and directors like I had (for the most part) you'll generally have a great experience.

[EagerBeaver]

I thank God I grew up in Washington state, where the spiritual environment there is a bit different than the COGOP all around the rest of the country -- and as a result all my camp experiences were arguably the best days of my life, save for a couple isolated incidents that you gotta admit, in such a spiritually oriented environment, are bound to happen.

My camp experiences were some of the best of my life too, Beav. Don't over generalize. It's not important what state you went to camp in, whether it be deep south or Pacific northwest. Camp experiences are good or bad based upon who the camp directors and staff are. If you get idiots who do mock executions, then you probably will have a bad experience. On the other hand, if you have dedicated servant cabin leaders and directors like I had (for the most part) you'll generally have a great experience.

True. I wasn't meaning to over generalize, it's just that a lot of this stuff that I hear happened in COGOPs from other regions never really happened where I grew up and I thank the Lord for it.

I know tons of great Camp leaders from other states (even a couple from Mississippi). So Camp Koombayah can't be THAT bad.

[DaJudge]

True. I wasn't meaning to over generalize, it's just that a lot of this stuff that I hear happened in COGOPs from other regions never really happened where I grew up and I thank the Lord for it.

Also remember that you are 10-20 years younger than alot of us who are posting about this stuff. The camps I went to in the early 80's were alot different than the ones I worked in in the late 90's. Some of the stuff they did in the camps I went to would get you sued now. I'm not sure it's really a matter of the region you grew up in, but rather the time you grew up in.

[Paully_44]

Camp experiences are good or bad based upon who the camp directors and staff are. If you get idiots who do mock executions, then you probably will have a bad experience. On the other hand, if you have dedicated servant cabin leaders and directors like I had (for the most part) you'll generally have a great experience.

My camp camp experiences growing up in my early years was in the Baptist organization we were memebers of. I started attending CoGoP camps in the mid 80's and had great experiences there as well. Thankfully, no mock crud like what was described.

Since my wife is now the Camp director for our Sr camp, I am biased to say they are they best ever.

[Dr. Ron]

You guys are all infants.

I attended the first youth camp in Tennessee. We didn't need smoke and mirrors.....we had "hell fire and brimstone" preachers who scared the "......" out of us. Then we were dragged (literally in some cases ) to the altar and smacked around and beat in the back and sweated down until we "got right". We DID have some serious fun times though that got a little "iffy"......lol

I loved every camp I attended....I met my wife there at 13 and proposed to her the first day we met. We were married 5 years and 6 days later and that was 43 years ago.

I have been a camp evangelist, dean, teacher, cook, counselor, floor scrubber, .....you name it. The name Hamm is legendary in Tenn. camp.....not for me but for my mom and dad....

We slept in tents and had service in tents.....had a bath house and a cafeteria.

That site is now the home of one of the largest churches in Nashville,.....nope it ain't COGOP anymore.....it's AG.

[paul]

You guys are all infants.

I attended the first youth camp in Tennessee. We didn't need smoke and mirrors.....we had "hell fire and brimstone" preachers who scared the "......" out of us. Then we were dragged (literally in some cases ) to the altar and smacked around and beat in the back and sweated down until we "got right". We DID have some serious fun times though that got a little "iffy"......lol

I loved every camp I attended....I met my wife there at 13 and proposed to her the first day we met. We were married 5 years and 6 days later and that was 43 years ago.

I have been a camp evangelist, dean, teacher, cook, counselor, floor scrubber, .....you name it. The name Hamm is legendary in Tenn. camp.....not for me but for my mom and dad....

We slept in tents and had service in tents.....had a bath house and a cafeteria.

That site is now the home of one of the largest churches in Nashville,.....nope it ain't COGOP anymore.....it's AG.

My first youth camp was 1954. If memory serves me right, Boyde Thornton was the Overseer and Verlin played the organ. I cherish every memory of those times. Every year I got saved, sanctified, filled with the Holy Ghost, baptised

I remember Johnny Wakeman from Austrila scaring me half to death with his preaching about the horses of Revelation.

One year it finally took. I can't recall any bad only good..of course that happends with age.

My wife and I either worked or directed camps every year that we were apart of cogop.

[KBevangelist]

Not knowing this guy or ever hearing of him for that matter seems to me he is a wounded soul.

I have been invovled in camp as long as I can remember. Like anything you have your wackos and your sane people.

Camp experiences to me are based on your staff. Get a bad one and you will be miserable, however, get a good one and it can be the best years of your life.

I love camp in Ga. Now loving it in NC (worked last year for the first time).

DaJudge, Dawgs1O, Dewayne, PastorDaniel, Alan, and myself can all share stories that changed our lives at camp.

Dewayne do you remember "spanish boys"

KB

[EagerBeaver]

We .....had a bath house...

Uh...you mean shower facilities?

[DaJudge]

We .....had a bath house...

Uh...you mean shower facilities?

Were the bath houses of the San Francisco variety?