Please forgive the interruption

[Richard Neal]

I am hesitant to post this message. I am so disturbed by some of the post here. I don’t mean to treat anyone in a derogatory manner. I lurk here rather than post because I do not like controversy and it is so easy to be misunderstood. So much has been said about folks leaving us.

I am bothered that many leave and then try to correct what has happened instead of “seeing it through”. Listen, we are a family. And, one thing I know about families is that we don’t all see alike. Love and commitment keep families together. “Love will hide a multitude of sins”. This is how the world will know we are His, that we love each other.

But, some of the posts lately have really troubled me. I don’t want anyone to leave, but I respect the person who leaves and does just that “leave”.

I know of many who have worked on the mission field or held positions where they got to experience the move of the Lord in awesome ways that most of us only dream of. You know, “join the army (COGOP) and see the world”. They possibly would never have had the chance to do so if the Church had not given them the opportunity. I have heard some say things about good men like, “They are only doing what they have to in order to ‘climb the ladder’ or ‘They won’t be in that position for long”. Now, the phrase is “they won’t be with us long”. When things don’t go the way they think it should they will leave. Or, when they have advanced their career here they will leave. I don’t know why so many have left, but I do wish they could think about what opportunities they have had that they might not have had otherwise. But, don’t judge them too harshly. You cannot read their minds.

I would love for every one of those who left to come back. But, let it be their choice. We have too much to do and we MUST get it done.

I for one would love for “us” and “them” to quit judging one another. Let those of us who determine to stay concentrate our time on “fixing” what is wrong, rather than trying to fix each other. It is getting more difficult each day to be “salt and light” in this lost and dying world. While we sit and argue with each other, souls are being ushered into eternity.

We don’t have it all “RIGHT” at the present, but please let us quit devouring one another. If you disagree with me there is a right way to talk to me. Don’t talk down to me or put me down. Do what God asked of us in our understanding of Him. “Come let us REASON together”. I know a lot of people on this forum. And, I don’t believe they would say in person what they type here. Please, because the WORLD is watching us (reading what we type), “If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men”. “As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”

I will now go back into hiding. Thank you for hearing me out!

[rjjunior]

I hear your heart, Pastor.

[pastorables]

But, some of the posts lately have really troubled me. I don’t want anyone to leave, but I respect the person who leaves and does just that “leave”.

Brother Neal,

I'm not exactly sure who, if anyone in particular, you are addressing, but being a minister who has recently resigned credentials with COGOP... I will respond.

I would like to understand your quote above more. I am 4th generation COGOP and have strong ties to the organization through family and friends, regardless of where I currently work for the Lord. I hope I have misunderstood the way I have received your words above. That particular remark seems a little insensitive to friends of COGOP. As a matter of fact, I was invited just recently to attend services with one of my COGOP pastor friends.

Let us remember also that this isn't a COGOP board, but a Christian board with a large constituency of COGOP members and/or former members, not to mention those from other church affiliations.

Please don't take my words harshly or as reprimand, they are only meant for honest communication. I will await your clarification on the remark, and if I have misread the direction of your thoughts, please forgive me.

In Him,
pa

[MacUser]

As another active 4th Generation COGOP.. people move in and out of positions, ministries, churches, areas etc as life progresses. We follow the leading of our Lord and what HE has planned for us first.

As shocking as this sounds.. the COGOP is just a ministry under God's BIG umbrella. People may move in and out as God directs and other events etc.

Not speaking directly to the original post.. but I for one want to nix the US vs them (squatters verses seekers) mentality and leave the doors open for all.

Let's love them as they come and love them as they move on and trust that God has put them where they are needed.

[scooter]

I agree pretty much with Richard Neal. Being one that left and came back I know the CoGop has afforded me opportunity that I would not have otherwise had.

Having said that I would like to say I think most of these things are situational. So Ron has friends and family in the CoGop that haven't changed, imagine that, he's old and represents a passing guard.

Situational. I have pastored now for over 14 years at the same church.

We don't have church flag marches, sing out of the blue book, or get goose bumps when someone flashes a CPMA card. We are simply reaching people. We are growing, seeing lives changed, spreading the gospel, etc.,

I know the past of our organization, but I have never been moved by a SO when I didn't want to go, lied to by leadership, or promised the moon. I don't sit here waiting for a bigger church , so here things have changed.

To have "friends" of the church participating in discussion is one thing. To me that's fine. There are those here that do just that.

There are others who purposefully draw people away because of thier own personal bad experience. It is situational.

I am about sick of it too.

Like other churches don't have problems.

Like other churches don't have people leave and start their own thing.

Like some people don't have constant problems with leadership, authority, or not getting their own way.

The "church" here is in good shape. Being still in the organization I am not blinded to the fact that there are still pockets of the "old school" ways, but I also am not ignorant of the fact that changes have taken and are taking place.

[Richard Neal]

I have directed my post to no one in particular. And I have friends who left as well. I am not judging anyone either. If someone is led of the Lord to leave they must follow their conscience.

I am mostly troubled by two things.

One is the tone of how we address each other. You can say that you are not judging, but then your words portray otherwise. I am aware that you cannot see someone’s body language in “words”. But, having read enough of them, you can tell.

Secondly, I feel some see the Church with a “small town” mentality. There is nothing here so I will just move to the “big city”. In Paul Thorn’s article he refers to us as “a small denomination founded in the early 1900s”. And I don’t challenge that, but some don’t feel they can get anywhere in a “small town”. In one of the post on Walmart someone mentioned the government keeping Walmart out. Well, run for office; get your friends to run for office. Change things from the inside. Become a part of making your town (COGOP) what it needs to be.

I have been here for 43+ years. I have cried too many tears on Church of God of Prophecy pulpits. I stopped pastoring for a while because I could not justify some things we were being required to teach. And I did not return until I felt I could respectfully say to those over me that I could no longer promote this philosophy and give them the choice as to whether I returned. It is a long story, too long to post. I have had my share of struggles and I feel we are working on issues all the time.

I have the utmost respect for Overseers (presiding Bishops). The position of pastor becomes more difficult as time progresses. I can only imagine the difficult task of being over a group of preachers. I don’t think that I have read a better post than that of Bro. Gary on servant leadership (paying our dues). If you are going to change a town, get involved. Let those in “leadership” see your heart (intent) don’t badger and complain. Show up and ask “how can I help?” Be respectful of everyone and you will earn their respect as well.

Thanks again for listening (reading).

[Dr. Ron]

Dickie,,,,,,I love you man....you know my heart on this matter.

Scooter, I applaud you for being planted in your church and staying with it. You have done exactly what I espouse. You are intrinsically involved in your community and are now beginning to see the benefits.

I know your so. I would not expect him to move one who is doing a good job as you seem to be doing. He is not stupid. And,,,,,,(he says with a sarcastic grin) nobody wants a "biker church " but you....LOLOLOL


I know you were joking when you called me old and my family backwards, but you know not where of you speak even in jest.

We who have gone before you, earned the right to say what we feel and see from the new vantage point we are now in......whether we left or stayed. Sometimes the only way a problem gets fixed is to hear someone who is not close to it anymore. I can tell you that I see everything much differently now than I did when I was in the middle of it. Not all of it in a negative light either. I merely respond to the posts I see here.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The attitude I spoke of on another thread "if you leave, don't let the door knob hit you in the butt" , is still one of the greatest impediments for people to come back. It is arrogance at it's highest and most evil level. I have never said I would not consider going back to COGOP. I HAVE said I would not consider going to another organization. But that is just me. I don't expect to do either. I am certain I would likely not be accepted back because too many of my ideas have changed.

I will end this by saying that the things I write about on here are for the most part things I fought for to be changed when I was there.

When the D&R question was "settled" in the last GA, many of us who had already left , smiled a little smile knowing that we sacrificed ourselves or were sacrificed to get that ball rolling 20 years ago. I personally got up and did a little dance.......it was worth my sacrifice. While I didn't feel it was acceptable to run down to the GEC and say "See ,Me and Jerry Smith and some others of us were right"!, we all did smile that little smile and say ......thank you Lord .

What I am saying is that most of us who have left, did not leave our love for COGOP.....just had to move into a different position.

[paul]

When the D&R question was "settled" in the last GA, many of us who had already left , smiled a little smile knowing that we sacrificed ourselves or were sacrificed to get that ball rolling 20 years ago. I personally got up and did a little dance.......it was worth my sacrifice. While I didn't feel it was acceptable to run down to the GEC and say "See ,Me and Jerry Smith and some others of us were right"!, we all did smile that little smile and say ......thank you Lord .
What I am saying is that most of us who have left, did not leave our love for COGOP.....just had to move into a different position.

Paul says'

[Dr. Ron]

Sorry Paul, didn't mean to leave you out......

[DaJudge]

When the D&R question was "settled" in the last GA, many of us who had already left , smiled a little smile knowing that we sacrificed ourselves or were sacrificed to get that ball rolling 20 years ago. I personally got up and did a little dance.......it was worth my sacrifice. While I didn't feel it was acceptable to run down to the GEC and say "See ,Me and Jerry Smith and some others of us were right"!, we all did smile that little smile and say ......thank you Lord .

Wonderful. But there were others who also thought our D&R stance was wrong, said so, and DIDN'T LEAVE. As much as I respect you Ron, I respect them more, because they stayed and FIXED THE PROBLEM.

[paul]

When the D&R question was "settled" in the last GA, many of us who had already left , smiled a little smile knowing that we sacrificed ourselves or were sacrificed to get that ball rolling 20 years ago. I personally got up and did a little dance.......it was worth my sacrifice. While I didn't feel it was acceptable to run down to the GEC and say "See ,Me and Jerry Smith and some others of us were right"!, we all did smile that little smile and say ......thank you Lord .

Wonderful. But there were others who also thought our D&R stance was wrong, said so, and DIDN'T LEAVE. As much as I respect you Ron, I respect them more, because they stayed and FIXED THE PROBLEM.

Dajudge, you still don't get it. Your senerio is that you have more respect for those who stayed and FIXED the situations than those who in your oponion, cut and ran. That certinally is your option. In your senerio you have totally overlooked the working and leading of the Holy Spirit who called many and for His reason and His reason alone spoke to us and said it is time to leave. I can use you more outside this organization than inside at this time.

[Dr. Ron]

Thank you Paul for the clarification.

I am somewhat amused that as long as I have been on here, that dajudge still puts me in the catagory of "cut and run". Especially since he knows more than most of you about certain issues.

I did not cut and run. I left for all the reasons Paul talked about. You don't really want to know ALL the reasons. And btw, most of those who "stayed and fixed " the problem were not around when the dialogue first started.

I have to assume that dajudge and others don't understand military operations very well either. Many soldiers have fought in Iraq. Many of them on more than one tour. When the "war" is finally won, the efforts of ALL the soldiers will be appreciated and none will be considered a coward and have "cut and run" just because they were not "in country" when the the final shot was fired.

If I were less mature as a christian, I think this is one of those times I might be offended....but since I am so close to perfection...I got that in COGOP......well I just understand that we will always be judged by the last thing we do..........so I guess I am a "cutter and runner".

[scooter]

I didn't think I called your family backwards?

I wish that those whose ministries and experiences which were birthed in the CoGop would give her respect as somewhat of a mother. It's not like the people of the CoGop didn't suffer through many mistakes that people who have left made as they grew.

I see the CoGop as having raised up many gifted individuals. In a way her impact is being felt around the world through many ministries which are not directly related through "membership".

I would like to know the many independent ministers and ministries which have roots which could be traced back to the organization.

I think even with all the "bad" experiences and mistakes of the past the church has put out a lot of great laboring individuals into the harvest.

[paul]

I didn't think I called your family backwards?

I wish that those whose ministries and experiences which were birthed in the CoGop would give her respect as somewhat of a mother.

Scooter, I believe that men like myself, Dr. Ron and others really do give respect to the cogop as where our christian, and minitry esperience was birthed. And because it was our birthing place, no matter where we are
(organizationally) we care for her, and as I have said before still have a great love for her as a part of the over all family of God.

I see the CoGop as having raised up many gifted individuals. In a way her impact is being felt around the world through many ministries which are not directly related through "membership".

I would like to know the many independent ministers and ministries which have roots which could be traced back to the organization.

For myself, although my birthing was in the cogop, I would have to say my raising was only to adolesant. At that time, for me, it seemed as though mom didn't want me to grow up fully but keep me under her control. As I said, I know without question the the Holy Spirit led me and it was He who continued my raising through circumstances that I might never had encountereed with mom. I do believe that the ministry that God had called me to start is having a real impact in the world. And I never discount were it all started.

I think even with all the "bad" experiences and mistakes of the past the church has put out a lot of great laboring individuals into the harvest

I would absolutely agree, I do think some of it has come at a really high cost.

[secretary]

I love the COGOP and am still a part of it. Will be till I die. But it does hurt me to see all the great people we've lost - Ron Hamn, Jerry Smith, Lanis Lewis, Harold Hunter, the late Mikey Jones, and the list goes on. The more tragic thing is, as I read on these posts, no one really seemed to care. As long as our doctrine remained "pure" and not questioned.

Now after losing all these great men of god, it's okay to question our "pure" doctrine.