what ever happened to

[MrDanger]

PG, I would be interested in what states you know of that let the churches choose their own pastors (since that is what we are talking about in the context of changing old ways).

Please don't give me references of large churches that the overseers wouldn't touch. I'm talking WHOLE STATES run that way. I know a lot of pastors and overseers in the south east. midwest, west, and north east. From all that I have talked to, at most, the church can give their opinion but do not truly have a voice in who they get. What I have heard from most overseers and pastors was they felt it caused too much confusion allowing the churches to have a say so in the matter.

So, I'm interested in examples of whole states run differently. If you don't want to give it to me in this thread, then feel free to PM me. Thanks.

[Pastor Bill]

I am always amused at the "it's not that way anymore". I didn't die when I left COGOP. I still have a lot of family there. I know what has and has not changed as well as anyone on here.

The main thing that has not changed is the attitude. The same old "do well here and one day you may get a "good church".

Not sure whether to laugh or puke, Ron... that is certainly not my attitude, nor is it the attitude of other leaders I interact with in COGOP. It may be true in places, but you paint with a mighty broad brush, friend.

Not been my experience either, both churches I have pastored, I felt led to that church, in both cases, I was sure it would not happen (first church I was currently in another denomination, and didn't think the CoGoP would even consider me, but then God led the overseer to ask me (I didn't seek it, HE led) Current church I originally thought they wouldn't allow me to come because I was a younger minister, and this was a "good church" as you called it. Then God pushed it and confirmed it for me, so I talked to the SO and was told there was already a pastor arranged to go, but that didn't work out, and months later, that's where I was.

I don't think it's this way everywhere, but at least in SOME areas, the times have changed.

[Pastor Bill]

that system has changed a lot. appointments more than not have some to do with the church and overseer.

And then it changed back to what it was. In most areas (according to you Georgia is a rare exception) it has reverted back to the Overseer makes the decision on all appointments without a true "say so" by the local church. Some states never changed in the first place. From friends in many states that I have talked to, it has reverted back to the old way.

i know for a fact that the pastors in the state of georgia was contacted by the state overseer with a survey asking if they would like to be move or stay just this past year. my church would have some say on who our pastor is, but if i wanted to hand pick my pastor i would run to the baptist church so i could bring them in and kick them out at will.

This is what we did as well, but we did have a few churches that chose their pastor that things didn't work out well at all. Sometimes that's NOT the best way to go either (as hinted at about the baptists above), I think it needs to be the Pastor & Overseer together seeking while taking into account the personality and preferences of the church.

[Dr. Ron]

Dawgs...the fact that the overseers write the pastors and ask them if they want to go or stay is not anything new. We were doing that back in the 80s.
MAT used to do the same thing with SOs.

Let me tell you what happened to me as a SO. I gave all my pastors the option on most occasions to stay or leave. I would explain to them that I wanted them to be in the will of God. The answer I would get so often was, "I will stay UNLESS you have something better for me". I had pastors who wanted to leave and they would tell the congregations that "the overseer has told me he is going to move me" to keep the people from being upset with them.

Usually, I did not move someone to a better church because I thought they had earned the right to a bigger church. I always worked from the position of temperament of the pastor and congregation. Some fit and some did not.

I also was given the option of staying in SD or moving. I choose to stay in SD ......and committed for five more years......I got moved to Texas after being told 3 days before I was staying in SD.

So, the option to tell the overseer what you would like to do has almost always been a part of the appointment system. And I am sorry PG I don't mean to paint with a broad brush.....but I know what I am talking about. Some guys like PG may come from a different perspective.....and to God be the Glory. When the so's gave "voting rights" to local churches they found out they had abdicated too much of their authority. I have watched this scenario unfold for 20 years. Now they are trying to recapture the power they gave away. Won't happen.

Now, since I know I will once again be castigated for being "bitter" or whatever, I forgive you all in advance for all the bad attitudes you will display to me....(joke) ........

Love you all

[Dr. Ron]

Bill, again your situation is not indicative of "change". This type scenario was played out time after time ......year after year for ages.

It is neither unique nor new. I am glad that you had that experience. But it does NOT in any way signal change.

My question is .....if you were offered another church with a better nicer parsonage, full salary, and better conditions. with more people, would you leave where you are and take that church, or would you say to the SO .....send me where ever you feel the Lord wants me.

[darylscook]

My question is .....if you were offered another church with a better nicer parsonage, full salary, and better conditions. with more people, would you leave where you are and take that church, or would you say to the SO .....send me where ever you feel the Lord wants me.

I'm not Pastor Bill, but....

My answer right now would be, "No, I feel I am exactly where God wants me" This is after I have spent a few months praying and making sure that Pearl is where God wants me. - But, I would not tell my overseer to .....send me where ever you feel the Lord wants me either.

God Bless You
Pastor Daryl

[Alan]

I think it needs to be the Pastor & Overseer together seeking while taking into account the personality and preferences of the church.

Pastor Bill, I agree with you 100% on this.

I am opposed to the members of a church choosing who the pastor is, or having any real say so in the matter. I have seen churches run good pastors off because the pastor chose to do things God's way instead of the way a few in the church wanted it done. I have seen churches that had a hard time finding a pastor for because they didn't like the ones that were willing to come to the church.

I know some of you may not agree with me and I know there are some good reasons. If we are in God's will and those over us are in God's will it will work, but if one is out of God's will it will cause problems. Just the same all it takes is one or two church members being out of God's will to cause problems if the church picks the pastor.

[Dr. Ron]

Alan, I totally agree with you. Voting is not scriptural. Sheep don't vote on who their "shepherd " is....

But, as long as there is an "up and down " structure, whether it be by vote or appointment, there will be problems.

Iwas recently contacted by a church to come try out to pastor. Starting salary......$120,000.00 plus benies.....


I have committed my life to this church, I make a third of that amount. But no money is worth my heart!


DAryl, since you answered my question, finish the answer....."do you have another job , are you seeking tenure, all those pertinent things?"
Does any of that have any bearing on your answer?

[Pastor Bill]

Dr. Ron,

Much of what you are saying you did, is what I am seeing today.

I know there are some pastors that honestly are looking for a "better church", but that's not where all of us are, nor where all of our overseers are.

I am sure there are still poor attitudes for many, but as a pastor, I have always been able to seek God and where God has led, He has opened the doors, and my overseers have always supported me in that. I am where I have felt led to be, if God leads for me to be somewhere else down the road, I trust 3 things. 1. He will show me, 2. I will have support of my overseer, and 3. If called to leave, I have asked God to never let me leave a church "down" or bail out on problems, but always leave in things better shape than where I started.

If God calls me to another church tomorrow, I don't care if it's the biggest in the state or the smallest, if HE is leading, it's the best place for me to go, and if HE's not leading, then I don't want to go even if everyone says it's a "step up".

Maybe that's not the attitude all pastors have, but it should be. I'm here forever unless God tells me different.

[Pastor Bill]

Bill, again your situation is not indicative of "change". This type scenario was played out time after time ......year after year for ages.

It is neither unique nor new. I am glad that you had that experience. But it does NOT in any way signal change.

My question is .....if you were offered another church with a better nicer parsonage, full salary, and better conditions. with more people, would you leave where you are and take that church, or would you say to the SO .....send me where ever you feel the Lord wants me.

I want to be where God wants me, I moved from probably one of the smallest churches in the state, to a larger one, Salary at first was LOWER than what I was getting at the small church, although the parsonage is nicer, and the salary has been increased since to about match or maybe be a little above what I had gotten, but none of that was considered when I moved. This church had been on my heart, I was asked by someone in the church to apply for it, and I told them no, I felt I was where I was supposed to be, but I did say I would pray about it. God did lead me to talk to the SO about it, and I could see God moving in ways at the church I was at to sort of wrap up my time there, and prepare for a new pastor.

If offered another church right now, my answer would most likely be no, I am where I am supposed to be right now. I can't say God won't lead me differently down the road, but for me it's more important to be in the will of God than to have a higher salary or benefits.

When I came to this church, and when I went to Mt Sterling, I went because I was led, I saw that my personality fit the church, and felt at home in both places. If I'm led to another church tomorrow, I'll expect the same thing, NOT a move for position or popularity, the best church in the state is the one that GOD wants me in, regardless of how anyone else rates them.

[RuSKY]

I think it needs to be the Pastor & Overseer together seeking while taking into account the personality and preferences of the church.

Pastor Bill, I agree with you 100% on this.

I am opposed to the members of a church choosing who the pastor is, or having any real say so in the matter. I have seen churches run good pastors off because the pastor chose to do things God's way instead of the way a few in the church wanted it done. I have seen churches that had a hard time finding a pastor for because they didn't like the ones that were willing to come to the church.

I know some of you may not agree with me and I know there are some good reasons. If we are in God's will and those over us are in God's will it will work, but if one is out of God's will it will cause problems. Just the same all it takes is one or two church members being out of God's will to cause problems if the church picks the pastor.

So ALan, have you ever seen a good church die because the wrong pastor or a pastor who was not ready to be put in that position? And yes some were mean and seem to think everything was about them, what they thought , what they wanted, what was good for them....and never caring for what was best for the members of the church.

Also, where in the bible, is this appointment system?
Yes, it can work, if you always have Godley men in those positions who do the appointing and politics are not involved.... and there are some. However, not all are.

THink of this.... Does it make sense for a man in Cleveland, Tn. to send a man from ,say, California or New York to a rural southern state, to appoint pastors (of the majority, he doesn't know) over a group of churches, of people he doesn't know. He doesn't know if those people are educated or illiterate, rural or city, liberal or conservative.
Now think of this....Who would know, better than the members, what type of person would work best with their congergation. Are you saying that the members aren't spiritual enough to decide such a thing? Me thinks it's about loosing power. And, someof you pastors and the overseers know that if the members chose, several of you would have no church to pastor!
Don't anyone bother saying you sound bitter, not in the least....the word is tired.

RuSKY

[christian]

[Alan]

So ALan, have you ever seen a good church die because the wrong pastor or a pastor who was not ready to be put in that position? And yes some were mean and seem to think everything was about them, what they thought , what they wanted, what was good for them....and never caring for what was best for the members of the church.

While I have never seen situations like this, I have heard of them. If a pastor is tearing down the local church it is the overseers responsibility to step in and do something. As I said earlier, I know it's not a perfect system, NOTHING that man is involved in is a perfect system because man is not perfect.

Also, where in the bible, is this appointment system?
Yes, it can work, if you always have Godley men in those positions who do the appointing and politics are not involved.... and there are some. However, not all are.

In the new testament when a church was set up the apostles set elders over the church. I do not find any place where it says a church was set up and then the people there chose the elders.

THink of this.... Does it make sense for a man in Cleveland, Tn. to send a man from ,say, California or New York to a rural southern state, to appoint pastors (of the majority, he doesn't know) over a group of churches, of people he doesn't know. He doesn't know if those people are educated or illiterate, rural or city, liberal or conservative.
Now think of this....Who would know, better than the members, what type of person would work best with their congergation. Are you saying that the members aren't spiritual enough to decide such a thing? Me thinks it's about loosing power. And, someof you pastors and the overseers know that if the members chose, several of you would have no church to pastor!
Don't anyone bother saying you sound bitter, not in the least....the word is tired.

RuSKY

If the man is being led by the Spirit than by all means YES, it makes more sense than anything else I know. How quickly do we forget that the CoGoP is a Theocracy, it should have nothing to do with knowing the church or knowing the person, it should have everything to do with seeking God's will.

[Pastor Bill]

Alan, I have also seen churches torn apart by leaders they chose themselves, the process of getting them there isn't the problem, it's the actions of the pastor. In those situations it's important to know that the Overseer is there for you as well. In a situation I was close to (NOT in the CoGoP, but the CoG) by the time the overseer was aware of the problems the damage was already done, and he said he wished someone would have contacted him sooner. That particular situation, the church had sought that man to pastor the church for YEARS, they ran off a couple of other pastors in the process, and when the overseer finally gave them who they wanted it about destroyed the church.

Again, this needs to be a cooperation between the pastor and overseer seeking God, with consideration given to the church and the church's leadership, but putting it all in any one of those's hands is dangerous if you get the wrong person/people.

[paul]

In the new testament when a church was set up the apostles set elders over the church. I do not find any place where it says a church was set up and then the people there chose the elders.

Alan, Paul would spend months, years teaching at a place before establishing a church, He then would place elders from that body to be the leaders of the congregation. ( much as Dr. Ron and a few others are doing). The tern and understanding of "Pastor" as we know it today from a western standpoint did not exist. Paul knew the churches, knew the people, and no doubt was the one mentoring the ones he would place in as elders.

This is a far cry from most systems we see today wether in the cogop or outside. In II Cor 11:22-29 Paul list everything he had gone through and in I Cor 4 he list the true understanding of the Apostles office. In the mist of all the suffering we tells us the greatest weight and concern that pressed him.

ICor 11:28 " besides the otherthings (sufferings and hardships) what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches

If this is not the heartbeat of every overseer, pastor, missionary. Then we have all missed it. Not just my church, not just my organization not just my countrymen. But all the churches.

If you want to know why I post on Jude2 , even if some think I am a bitter old man Well here you have it.