who is evil?

[Pastor Gary]

crispfinagin --

May I speak as an older man to a younger man?

First - your passion for justice is commendable. Jesus taught justice, lived justice, IS justice... and we need passionate young men to cry out for justice.

The quote often attributed to Winston Churchill -- "If you are not a liberal when you're 25, you are have no heart. If you are not a conservative when you are 45, you have no brain." -- applies here. As we get older, we don't get more cynical, we simply have our eyes opened to the subtleties of the shades of gray, the continuum that spreads between the neat, tidy, black and white extremes in which the young view the world.

I, too, believe that people should love mercy and do justice. WalMart (and Starbucks, and...) are not people. They are impersonal, profit-driven, business enterprises that provide goods and services in exchange for money. You hold them responsible for not "doing the right thing" with an accident victim because she was in an unfortunate circumstance and they are a wealthy and successful corporation. How far are you willing to go with that logic?

Every day, in every WalMart in the world, people enter those stores to shop with very limited resources. Some of them make hard, ugly choices: school supplies for their daughter or food; badly needed medicine or a new tire for the car... WalMart is rich. Shouldn't they just have compassion and give those people what they need? Why stop there? Why not free food? Free clothing? Free housing? Free everything?

That is the bill of goods that has been sold to the young and the naive, the Hegelian dialectic, the Marxist "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." In theory that sounds so compassionate, but in practice it is as evil as its opposite: stealing the fruits of the labor/investment industrious and successful and giving them to those who have met failure is not the solution. If you redistributed all the world's wealth equally among every person on the planet, would that be fair and merciful? Would it work? I suggest that within 5 years of any such redistribution the "haves" would again have all the wealth, and the "have nots" would again be impoverished, because the "haves" would start businesses or provide services to make money.

I really fear for America right now because Obamery (they are interchangeable socialists) have sold the young the idea that "hope" means "the government is your savior." You are a smart young man. Think critically, not only of the conservative views, but of the liberal hype, smoke and mirrors.

[Gerald Creasy]

gerald i have to go i will be abck but you simply made my point we were forced by being taken to court so we stopped using it and we got antoher one.
Next you are covering the sins of cogop which are much worse then fabric, TCOG has nto done everyhting right by any means I admit that nobody and no organization has there is your blatant truth friend. As I said thievery goes deep and before TCOG. I really should be quite please read my "sorry post" Be back later
I know we are a cult who does not matter...............

I guess the two things "that stick in my craw" are these:

1) You question what is evil in a corporate sense, but devote your fealty to an organization (a corporate body) that violated AT LEAST TWO of the Ten Commandments in it's very founding (okay "reorganization")

2) Your response: So What! an answer you would not tolerate from a sinner in your altar. Everybody has faults! another answer unacceptable from a sinner in your altar.

[forestwalker]

As we get older, we don't get more cynical, we simply have our eyes opened to the subtleties of the shades of gray, the continuum that spreads between the neat, tidy, black and white extremes in which the young view the world.

That is the bill of goods that has been sold to the young and the naive, the Hegelian dialectic, the Marxist "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." In theory that sounds so compassionate, but in practice it is as evil as its opposite: stealing the fruits of the labor/investment industrious and successful and giving them to those who have met failure is not the solution....

I really fear for America right now because Obamery (they are interchangeable socialists) have sold the young the idea that "hope" means "the government is your savior." You are a smart young man. Think critically, not only of the conservative views, but of the liberal hype, smoke and mirrors.

Talk about forcing the world into black-and-white extremes. As you say Pastor, the world is both more subtle and more gray.

[Pastor Gary]

As we get older, we don't get more cynical, we simply have our eyes opened to the subtleties of the shades of gray, the continuum that spreads between the neat, tidy, black and white extremes in which the young view the world.

That is the bill of goods that has been sold to the young and the naive, the Hegelian dialectic, the Marxist "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." In theory that sounds so compassionate, but in practice it is as evil as its opposite: stealing the fruits of the labor/investment industrious and successful and giving them to those who have met failure is not the solution....

I really fear for America right now because Obamery (they are interchangeable socialists) have sold the young the idea that "hope" means "the government is your savior." You are a smart young man. Think critically, not only of the conservative views, but of the liberal hype, smoke and mirrors.

Talk about forcing the world into black-and-white extremes. As you say Pastor, the world is both more subtle and more gray.

You post these cryptic responses that have no exposition of what you mean. Are you saying that both of the Democrat Party leading candidates are NOT socialists in ideology? If not, define socialism for me.

[one love]

crispfinagin --

May I speak as an older man to a younger man?

First - your passion for justice is commendable. Jesus taught justice, lived justice, IS justice... and we need passionate young men to cry out for justice.

The quote often attributed to Winston Churchill -- "If you are not a liberal when you're 25, you are have no heart. If you are not a conservative when you are 45, you have no brain." -- applies here. As we get older, we don't get more cynical, we simply have our eyes opened to the subtleties of the shades of gray, the continuum that spreads between the neat, tidy, black and white extremes in which the young view the world.

I, too, believe that people should love mercy and do justice. WalMart (and Starbucks, and...) are not people. They are impersonal, profit-driven, business enterprises that provide goods and services in exchange for money. You hold them responsible for not "doing the right thing" with an accident victim because she was in an unfortunate circumstance and they are a wealthy and successful corporation. How far are you willing to go with that logic?

Every day, in every WalMart in the world, people enter those stores to shop with very limited resources. Some of them make hard, ugly choices: school supplies for their daughter or food; badly needed medicine or a new tire for the car... WalMart is rich. Shouldn't they just have compassion and give those people what they need? Why stop there? Why not free food? Free clothing? Free housing? Free everything?

That is the bill of goods that has been sold to the young and the naive, the Hegelian dialectic, the Marxist "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." In theory that sounds so compassionate, but in practice it is as evil as its opposite: stealing the fruits of the labor/investment industrious and successful and giving them to those who have met failure is not the solution. If you redistributed all the world's wealth equally among every person on the planet, would that be fair and merciful? Would it work? I suggest that within 5 years of any such redistribution the "haves" would again have all the wealth, and the "have nots" would again be impoverished, because the "haves" would start businesses or provide services to make money.

I really fear for America right now because Obamery (they are interchangeable socialists) have sold the young the idea that "hope" means "the government is your savior." You are a smart young man. Think critically, not only of the conservative views, but of the liberal hype, smoke and mirrors.

ok that deserves at least 3-4 stars!!!! sorry tw i will say something else if you desire i am kidding, but really good post PG

[one love]

gerald i have to go i will be abck but you simply made my point we were forced by being taken to court so we stopped using it and we got antoher one.
Next you are covering the sins of cogop which are much worse then fabric, TCOG has nto done everyhting right by any means I admit that nobody and no organization has there is your blatant truth friend. As I said thievery goes deep and before TCOG. I really should be quite please read my "sorry post" Be back later
I know we are a cult who does not matter...............

I guess the two things "that stick in my craw" are these:

1) You question what is evil in a corporate sense, but devote your fealty to an organization (a corporate body) that violated AT LEAST TWO of the Ten Commandments in it's very founding (okay "reorganization")

2) Your response: So What! an answer you would not tolerate from a sinner in your altar. Everybody has faults! another answer unacceptable from a sinner in your altar.

ok apply the same logic to your org. then you are where? just blasting everyone else except your own house.

[one love]

Gerald I just want to end this , so Im sorry for anything that upsets you about TCOG. I cant change your mind or what upsets you. However i am not going to get in this mudslinging contest. I refuse to sit here and build walls of division. Bash all ya like, you have the last word, I love Ya Brother, God Bless you and pray for me. Thanks,

May the Lord bless you,
Kevin

[forestwalker]

You post these cryptic responses that have no exposition of what you mean. Are you saying that both of the Democrat Party leading candidates are NOT socialists in ideology? If not, define socialism for me.

Don't mean to be cryptic, just trying not to be overly contentious. Here's what I mean by calling what you're saying black-and-white thinking: Socialism is not NOT radical, individualistic, libertarian economics, i.e. socialism is not just everything outside the little box that defines America's current orthodox "conservative" (they're anything but conservative) economic views. Questioning and not submitting ones mind to the current economic order does not make one a socialist as many economic libertarians would have us believe any more than questioning and challenging the current social order makes one a Christianist, totalitarian, theocrat, statist, or whatever else social libertarians may like to denounce us as.

Socialism is centralized ownership and/or control of the means of production (usually by government but not necessarily) and the centralized planning of the distribution of wealth and goods. So no, neither Obama nor Hillary are Socialists in ideology or proposed policy. I suspect that their basic economic assumptions actually differ very little from the GOP's. The only real differences I see in their policy proposals is that they're ameliorists and not ideologically opposed to sane regulation (of course, neither is McCain). They certainly sound different. They can use rhetoric cynically and unfairly against "corporatist" opponents in the same way others do the same against their "socialist" opponents. But so far as I can tell it's just rhetoric on both sides.

[Pastor Gary]

Don't mean to be cryptic, just trying not to be overly contentious. Here's what I mean by calling what you're saying black-and-white thinking: Socialism is not NOT radical, individualistic, libertarian economics, i.e. socialism is not just everything outside the little box that defines America's current orthodox "conservative" (they're anything but conservative) economic views. Questioning and not submitting ones mind to the current economic order does not make one a socialist as many economic libertarians would have us believe any more than questioning and challenging the current social order makes one a Christianist, totalitarian, theocrat, statist, or whatever else social libertarians may like to denounce us as.

Do you believe that socialism is a fair and viable economic/political philosophy?

[forestwalker]

Of course not. It's a Christian heresy. And it's built on a whole host of bad assumptions about human nature, social order, and teleological ends.

[forestwalker]

Do you believe that socialism is a fair and viable economic/political philosophy?

Do you believe that "Capitalism or Socialism?" is a question that frames well the political and economic issues we (big "we", not just you and I) are wrestling with?

[Pastor Gary]

It may not be THE question, but it most assuredly is A question, and it can be answered with a YES or NO -- forced-choice questions are like that.

[forestwalker]

Forced choice usually means false choice.

[Pastor Gary]

Forced choice usually means false choice.

And failure to answer usually reveals the answer. Why is dialog so difficult and obfuscation so necessary?

[Dr. Ron]

Okay...I was forced into this.....


First of all onelove, I am so sorry that your thread was hijacked. While I personally know more about your controversy with Gerald than either of you or both put together, it bears no significance to the question you put forth.

Secondly, the government makes far more % profits on oil than the oil companies. The government makes about 80 cents per gallon while the oil company makes about 20-30 cents profit.

Before Hilary goes after the smaller share she should show what is happening to the lion's share of the profits being gained by the government.


We are being sold a bill of goods with all this talk about govt. intervention.
I hope to God that doesn't take root in the hearts of American people.

I have had an unpleasant experience with some ruthless people myself, but I don't ever want govt. intervention.

Let's get over all this "socialism" talk and get back to being a country that believes in and practices good old fashioned capitalism....

and as for Walmart...I was SO in La. during Hurrican Andrew. I called the Walmart store in Baton Rouge and asked for help for some of my churches. They told me to come on over. They had the employees load my pick up truck with diapers, formula, tissues, canned goods and other needs....I did this twice a day for 6 days.....never once asked me for a dime. Check them out sometimes and see who is always at the front of the line to give goods and money........WALMART! I don't always like them or their policies....but I don't think they are unAmerican because they turn a profit.