Finance comm. report response

[paul]

We in KY have been told that we are the only state where 100% of pastors receiving a salary are paying tithes to the state offices.

BUT we still do have to watch the budget, it's not as much money as you would think. How we got to this point is not legislation, Scott has not sent letters to pastors who were not, and encouraged them to start, or chided them for mistakes, but instead he balanced our state budget, cut back where needed so that we could operate with what was coming in, and as pastors have seen that, the confidence in the state office has changed the actions of the pastors.

Don't assume those that are not sending in money are doing it selfishly, while I may not agree with their decision, some do it out of a lack of trust/lack of relationship with the state offices.

Pastor Bill, you have said what I have mentioned several times in this forum. Your SO is on the right track.

Paul said:

For an organization ( any) when finances are falling, drying up or insufficient. To me, trying to figure out how to get everyone to do more generally does not work. Usually the only thing that happens is you ailinate the good people and those who are not carring their load continue in the same mode.

Rather it is much more productive to examine how the church or organization to produce growth, bottom line, with what it has by being more efficient and focusing in on program and methods that are really working and getting rid of those that don't. This is never easy, because people hold sacred some old things that just arn't working.

[KBevangelist]

but if all the ministers in the state of georgia was paying tithes to the state like they are supposed to then the camp groud and state level positions such as a state youth minister would not have to be supported so much by love offerings and a small amount of churchs that give a lot to these areas. sorry,.

Can you back that up with factual evidence?

KB

We in KY have been told that we are the only state where 100% of pastors receiving a salary are paying tithes to the state offices.

BUT we still do have to watch the budget, it's not as much money as you would think. How we got to this point is not legislation, Scott has not sent letters to pastors who were not, and encouraged them to start, or chided them for mistakes, but instead he balanced our state budget, cut back where needed so that we could operate with what was coming in, and as pastors have seen that, the confidence in the state office has changed the actions of the pastors.

Don't assume those that are not sending in money are doing it selfishly, while I may not agree with their decision, some do it out of a lack of trust/lack of relationship with the state offices.

Right! People put there money and God's money where they see it being used effectively.

They are passionate about it as well. Some people do not do it because, put simply, they do not trust people at state or IO levels.

KB

[Rob]

Pastor Bill is correct. Scott has stood and told my church and at the State Convention that he has 100% of the pastors in KY paying their tithes to the state office.

The reason? IMHO is that Scott has worked hard and tirelessly at building relationships with his Pastor's and their families more concerned with what we are doing not the why we are not.

I have received letters from Cleveland that their letter is basically concerned with why they are not receiving money from us (local church), not about being in a relationship with me or my local church.

Scott is without question, the best Overseer that I have had the opportunity to work with.

Pastor Rob

[Pastor Bill]

I have to agree with you, and Rob, I know you weren't able to be at the Side-by-side meeting in Stanton, but Scott really hit on this that day, focusing on building relationships, and that we must focus on working together in relationship to one another for the Kingdom of God, rather than a man-made hierarchal structure we call the church.

It was very inspiring, and I am so glad to see the direction we are going in KY.

[EagerBeaver]

I say we make our International Office leadership work secular jobs as well as their current duties, to get a good glimpse of what a lot of COGOP pastors under them go through.

Might change their perspective on this issue a little bit, just my $.02.

COGOP needs to de-centralize and IO needs to put more focus on Local churches. You don't build anything, much less a successful organization, by building from the top on down.

I have received letters from Cleveland that their letter is basically concerned with why they are not receiving money from us (local church), not about being in a relationship with me or my local church.

That troubles me greatly. I'm not going to point a finger and say they're money hungry...I still regard them as brothers and sisters in the faith, but there is no Local focus. IO cannot exist without the local churches financially supporting them and IO supporting local churches back. It's a two way street.

People put there money and God's money where they see it being used effectively.

They are passionate about it as well. Some people do not do it because, put simply, they do not trust people at state or IO levels.

Can't blame them for that. A lot of new people in the COGOP really don't give a rat's butt what happens at IO in the first place. It doesn't affect what's happening in their current church so why should they?

If IO put more of a demand to put the money in the local church and community outreach than send it to HQ, it would be a major step in the right direction.

[crispfin]

A lot of new people in the COGOP really don't give a rat's butt

Well that's really not the part of the rat tithe most places like to get.

[dawgs10]

lts time to play WHAT THEY REALLY MEAN!! the local church cant pay the bills because of the lack of growth at the local church. they want to keep everything they have to pay the bills. so, instead of sending tithes to state and io they keep it. when the offices see the lack of money coming in and try to correct the issue the local church gets angry. sounds about right to me. we can see two possible outcomes. 1. the local church grows and becomes able to meet the needs of the church worldwide. 2.we close the offices bring home all the missonaries, send all the io employees home, broke folk and tell the world we are the only organization i know of this size to not have backing by the local ministry, therefore we cant have an io. that sounds about right.

[Pastor Gary]

lts time to play WHAT THEY REALLY MEAN!! the local church cant pay the bills because of the lack of life at the local church. they want to keep everything they have to pay the bills. so, instead of sending tithes to state and io they keep it. when the offices see the lack of money coming in and try to correct the issue the local church gets angry. sounds about right to me. we can see two possible outcomes. 1. the local church grows and becomes able to meet the needs of the church worldwide. 2.we close the offices bring home all the missonaries, send all the io employees home, broke folk and tell the world we are the only organization i know of this size to not have backing by the local ministry, therefore we cant have an io. that sounds about right.

Is it just me, are do some of those sentences make no sense???

[dawgs10]

lts time to play WHAT THEY REALLY MEAN!! the local church cant pay the bills because of the lack of life at the local church. they want to keep everything they have to pay the bills. so, instead of sending tithes to state and io they keep it. when the offices see the lack of money coming in and try to correct the issue the local church gets angry. sounds about right to me. we can see two possible outcomes. 1. the local church grows and becomes able to meet the needs of the church worldwide. 2.we close the offices bring home all the missonaries, send all the io employees home, broke folk and tell the world we are the only organization i know of this size to not have backing by the local ministry, therefore we cant have an io. that sounds about right.

Is it just me, are do some of those sentences make no sense???

lot of editing going on. fighting a 4 year old and typing at the same time.

[paul]

lts time to play WHAT THEY REALLY MEAN!! the local church cant pay the bills because of the lack of life at the local church. they want to keep everything they have to pay the bills. so, instead of sending tithes to state and io they keep it. when the offices see the lack of money coming in and try to correct the issue the local church gets angry. sounds about right to me. we can see two possible outcomes. 1. the local church grows and becomes able to meet the needs of the church worldwide. 2.we close the offices bring home all the missonaries, send all the io employees home, broke folk and tell the world we are the only organization i know of this size to not have backing by the local ministry, therefore we cant have an io. that sounds about right.

Is it just me, are do some of those sentences make no sense???

Question: Has the IO ever brought in an outside financial firm to evaluate the overall finicial structure of the organization, and make suggestions based on fiscal realities ?

Source of income, outlay, goals and programs.

[Pastor Gary]

lot of editing going on. fighting a 4 year old and typing at the same time.

[free]

If I had my way I'd like to see the local church give 5% to state and 5% to IO...That seems like a "fair" deal to me. There is no way that states will survive no matter what their size on pastor's tithes only and special offerings, etc. Some of the larger states with money in the bank can milk it for a few years but most of them will be broke in 10 years or less.

A state planning a budget is no different than a local church or an individual planning one...The kicker for the state (local church to some degree) is that you never know how much income (tithes) you'll have each month so it makes it difficult but not impossible.

I pay my tithes...I take expenses that I feel justified taking...I feel right in the eyes of God and have no problem sleeping at night...I don't need an overseer or anyone else questioning my relationship with God based on my tithes. When I write my tithes check each month I rejoice in what God as blessed me with...When I write the tithes check for my wife each week I do the same.

It seems like a backwards move for the church as a whole but then again mine is just one opinion.

[jdavis]

I pay my tithes...I take expenses that I feel justified taking...I feel right in the eyes of God and have no problem sleeping at night...I don't need an overseer or anyone else questioning my relationship with God based on my tithes.

Thanks Brother I feel the same way. My local church has committed over $10,500 of a $74,000 budget to the International and State Offices. However when we try to have input into the future of our Region and its leadership it is not even so much as acknowledged in Cleveland. When we do have a visitor connected with Cleveland he spends part of his time telling us in so many words that we should be ashamed that we are not supporting our Overseer better. I tithe on my pastor's salary every month and seldom deduct any expenses. I support the region at events and will continue to do so but it is not uplifting when we hear how bad we are doing and all the time we really have no control or input into the situation.

Getting off my high horse and soapbox now.

john

[secretary]

Prayer: God please help our organization. When will international offices learn we need to be a Spirit Driven people not horse whipped and manipulated to satisfy man's whims.

[secretary]

How I miss men in Cleveland like Billy Murray who tried to lead the church forward not backward.