Finance comm. report response

[rjjunior]

Question: Has the IO ever brought in an outside financial firm to evaluate the overall finicial structure of the organization, and make suggestions based on fiscal realities ?

Source of income, outlay, goals and programs.

Yes, a few years back. The only thing I specifically remember was the idea to build up a significant reserve. In addition, there were greater accountabilities put in order. I remember something vague about a group of 'professionals' serving as an advisory board for investments and the like. I'm sure there were other things, but those were to most notable at the time.

[Billy n NC]

Okay.
I am not a pastor. But as a member.


I just do not get the (not sure of the word I want to use) independence/fretting I read here on this subject.

We had our meetings on the upcoming changes . We voted. We passed. We chose our proxy.

The Bible is clear to be subject to them over you in the Lord.

These people who are put in this position (Commitee Members) are studing the subjects to the best of there ability. They are appointed by our church leaders.

The documents that have been released this year seem to be very obvious to me. They made a change that USA Stated pay tithes to NA Office. The issue about pastors paying tithes must be an issue if it was suggested/mandated by church leaders to be dealt with. If a pastor is paying his tithes, Then they aint talking to him..

[Pastor Gary]

If a pastor is paying his tithes, Then they aint talking to him..

I think you missed the point, Bill... it is not *just* about Pastors paying tithes; it's about somebody in a remote office questioning whether a pastor has legitimate business-related expenses that should be considered when computing his income, and thus his tithe.

This might very well jeopardize some people in their tax filings, as they have arranged with their churches to classify parts of their remuneration as expenses for this or that, and now, if the church says "NO" they could owe some massive taxes.

Tithing is not to be done with a calculator and a codified list of acceptable deductions, else it becomes no different than the IRS.

[RamboPreacher]

It's all moot if you just pay tithe on "gross", as I believe Abraham did.

[darylscook]

If a pastor is paying his tithes, Then they aint talking to him..

I think you missed the point, Bill... it is not *just* about Pastors paying tithes; it's about somebody in a remote office questioning whether a pastor has legitimate business-related expenses that should be considered when computing his income, and thus his tithe.

This might very well jeopardize some people in their tax filings, as they have arranged with their churches to classify parts of their remuneration as expenses for this or that, and now, if the church says "NO" they could owe some massive taxes.

Tithing is not to be done with a calculator and a codified list of acceptable deductions, else it becomes no different than the IRS.

Wow! I interpreted it different. My Treasurer is a CPA and I am only allowed IRS approved expenses. I am reimbursed for those before I receive a salary for Tithes. I then report the Salary portion amount as Tithes paid to Pastor and Pay Tithes from that amount. I put a dash in the expenses part of my report b/c I have no unreimbursed expenses - Well I add some additional Tithes b/c I live in a parsonage.

[darylscook]

It's all moot if you just pay tithe on "gross", as I believe Abraham did.

That would be difficult for a Grocery Store Owner since his profit is only 2 - 4 % of His Gross receipts

Or do you mean a different "Gross"

Pastor Daryl

[Pastor Bill]

It's all moot if you just pay tithe on "gross", as I believe Abraham did.

That would be difficult for a Grocery Store Owner since his profit is only 2 - 4 % of His Gross receipts

Or do you mean a different "Gross"

Pastor Daryl[/quote

I believe he is speaking of gross pay, the amount you are paid before taxes are taken out.

A grocery store owner would do one of two things, one tithe on the total profits of the business, or pay himself a Salary from the store, and pay tithes on that salary. It probably depends on how big the store is, and how much profit they are making.

[Alan]

If I had my way I'd like to see the local church give 5% to state and 5% to IO...That seems like a "fair" deal to me.

Why not have the churches pay 10% to the state/regional and the state/regional pay 10% to the IO?

Think about it that would mean that each state/regional office would more than likely have more tithes coming in than most of the churches in the state/region, and then the IO would have more tithes coming in than most states/regions. If that's not enough then something is probably wrong.

You may still need special offerings to maintain campgrounds, but it seems to me like a step in the right direction.

[darylscook]

It's all moot if you just pay tithe on "gross", as I believe Abraham did.

That would be difficult for a Grocery Store Owner since his profit is only 2 - 4 % of His Gross receipts

Or do you mean a different "Gross"

Pastor Daryl

I believe he is speaking of gross pay, the amount you are paid before taxes are taken out.

A grocery store owner would do one of two things, one tithe on the total profits of the business, or pay himself a Salary from the store, and pay tithes on that salary. It probably depends on how big the store is, and how much profit they are making.

Sorry, I was just being funny! and trying to make a point about "gross" and its different meanings.

Daryl

[RamboPreacher]

If I had my way I'd like to see the local church give 5% to state and 5% to IO...That seems like a "fair" deal to me.

Why not have the churches pay 10% to the state/regional and the state/regional pay 10% to the IO?

Think about it that would mean that each state/regional office would more than likely have more tithes coming in than most of the churches in the state/region, and then the IO would have more tithes coming in than most states/regions. If that's not enough then something is probably wrong.

You may still need special offerings to maintain campgrounds, but it seems to me like a step in the right direction.

This is the paradigm I have as well - though they seem to be breaking out the general presbyter offices as well. so in essence the local church would pay tithe to regional/state. t the region/states pay tithe to the general presbyter office (in our case, the NA, COGOP) and that office would pay to the International offices)
http://www.jude2.com/viewtopic.php?t=19532

the thing is that in the document it specifies that it is in reference to paying to those directly over us in the Lord. so why would the local church pay to the international offices? wouldn't that understanding they are trying to put forward apply here as well?

in any case, I came in to the COGOP with the current structure, and I don't have a problem paying local church tithe to HQ (I am the local church treasurer).

With that said, I would like to see a "blue sky" and not have to specify any details of what paying tithe is or means, or even "mandate" or govern it. that was stopped at the local church level for membership (our tithe paying church attenders went up since that recommendation was passed a couple GA's ago, by the way.)

but when I see or hear of state/regional overseers taking expenses before paying tithe, then telling the local pastors that they shouldn't, that is not a good thing, in my opinion.

Further, I do not see any "real" accountability to finances at the state/regional level. they may voluntarily have third party CPA's or audits, etc. but there is no check and balances (that I know of in the NA COGOP). Someone PLEASE correct me if my understanding is wrong here.

I have heard rumors (please take this with a salt-lick, as it is NOT verifiable and third party) that some states/region offices/pastors are taking reimbursed expenses, and ALSO taking exemptions on them in their taxes. (which is really a bad thing). Along with that (again, as I understand), the reimbursements or expenses/exemptions are taken with no receipt available, other than a personal note that might say that a certain amount was spent on a certain thing!

just my dos centavos.

[Pastor Bill]

If I had my way I'd like to see the local church give 5% to state and 5% to IO...That seems like a "fair" deal to me.

Why not have the churches pay 10% to the state/regional and the state/regional pay 10% to the IO?

Think about it that would mean that each state/regional office would more than likely have more tithes coming in than most of the churches in the state/region, and then the IO would have more tithes coming in than most states/regions. If that's not enough then something is probably wrong.

You may still need special offerings to maintain campgrounds, but it seems to me like a step in the right direction.

This is the paradigm I have as well - though they seem to be breaking out the general presbyter offices as well. so in essence the local church would pay tithe to regional/state. t the region/states pay tithe to the general presbyter office (in our case, the NA, COGOP) and that office would pay to the International offices)
http://www.jude2.com/viewtopic.php?t=19532

the thing is that in the document it specifies that it is in reference to paying to those directly over us in the Lord. so why would the local church pay to the international offices? wouldn't that understanding they are trying to put forward apply here as well?

in any case, I came in to the COGOP with the current structure, and I don't have a problem paying local church tithe to HQ (I am the local church treasurer).

With that said, I would like to see a "blue sky" and not have to specify any details of what paying tithe is or means, or even "mandate" or govern it. that was stopped at the local church level for membership (our tithe paying church attenders went up since that recommendation was passed a couple GA's ago, by the way.)

but when I see or hear of state/regional overseers taking expenses before paying tithe, then telling the local pastors that they shouldn't, that is not a good thing, in my opinion.

Further, I do not see any "real" accountability to finances at the state/regional level. they may voluntarily have third party CPA's or audits, etc. but there is no check and balances (that I know of in the NA COGOP). Someone PLEASE correct me if my understanding is wrong here.

I have heard rumors (please take this with a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_lick] salt-lick[/utl], as it is NOT verifiable and third party) that some states/region offices/pastors are taking reimbursed expenses, and ALSO taking exemptions on them in their taxes. (which is really a bad thing). Along with that (again, as I understand), the reimbursements or expenses/exemptions are taken with no receipt available, other than a personal note that might say that a certain amount was spent on a certain thing!

just my dos centavos.

Well I won't speak to the rumors, other than to say if that's going on, the IRS will probably be dealing with it!

I agree with many who have said paying a tithe from the church to State/Region, then then that office tithe on up the chain, etc. sounds the best, but I think a good part of it is the lack of communication. There is a lack of money at the state level, and there probably are places that should be cut back up the chain to fix that. But also it all comes down to accountability. I know what money is being spent in my state, we operate on a balanced budget, and use what funds we have wisely, now that we are doing that, more money is coming from the churches into the state offices. I don't have the same connection with the IO, and that is what is difficult. I know plenty of members who don't trust sending money outside the local church, to assure them, I can speak to issues around the state, and how that effects us, because I am involved and well informed by our SO, but I can't say the same on up the chain, and that at times is frustrating.

[free]

I'd like to know the tithig structure in other countries...I think most would agree that North America supports and keeps IO going...For that matter it probably keeps CoGoP going. That's not a bad thing but IMHO a truthful statement.

This year my church will send approx. $40,000.00 in tithes to IO...Not counting thousands of dollars in mission money. We'll send 2% or roughly $8,000.00 to our state office (an amount requested by our state from each church) plus other offerings throughout the year.

My question is, what does my local church get for a $50,000.00 investment? What does it benefit me? Whenever I ask that question I get the standard answer..."IO can more efficiently convert funds around te world to our mission partners, etc."

I deciced to stay with this organization so I'll play by the rules but that doesn't mean that I have to like them or think there right.

Again, one man's opinion.

[Pastor Bill]

My question is, what does my local church get for a $50,000.00 investment? What does it benefit me? Whenever I ask that question I get the standard answer..."IO can more efficiently convert funds around te world to our mission partners, etc."

I deciced to stay with this organization so I'll play by the rules but that doesn't mean that I have to like them or think there right.

Again, one man's opinion.

My only concern with this thinking (which at times I very much share, but struggle with) is that it doesn't seem to fit the concept of tithing, or of giving.

What would our answer be to a church member who asked the same question of us? Would not the same thinking apply? but we see local church tithing as a responsibility, keeping the local church going, spreading the gosple, etc. wouldn't the same apply to IO?

Where I see the difference and the problem is that we aren't seeing the same accountability, or seeing the work done on that level. We'll sow into the local church, because we see the harvest, for some of us the state level falls into that as well, but very few seem to see it on the international level.

[paul]

My question is, what does my local church get for a $50,000.00 investment? What does it benefit me? Whenever I ask that question I get the standard answer..."IO can more efficiently convert funds around te world to our mission partners, etc."

I deciced to stay with this organization so I'll play by the rules but that doesn't mean that I have to like them or think there right.

Again, one man's opinion.

My only concern with this thinking (which at times I very much share, but struggle with) is that it doesn't seem to fit the concept of tithing, or of giving.

What would our answer be to a church member who asked the same question of us? Would not the same thinking apply? but we see local church tithing as a responsibility, keeping the local church going, spreading the gosple, etc. wouldn't the same apply to IO?

Where I see the difference and the problem is that we aren't seeing the same accountability, or seeing the work done on that level. We'll sow into the local church, because we see the harvest, for some of us the state level falls into that as well, but very few seem to see it on the international level.

IMHO the percentages that are being tosed about are really the least of the issue. I recall a time in the cogop that if someone said the church would give as little to SO and IO as you do now. We would have responded " In your dreams".

I receive funds from various means. We never to our knowledge receive anyones tithe, that is the local churches. I have some people who say their local church is not doing anything and they want to tithe to us..I tell them No. Some churches that tithe to us (independant churches) do so completely on their own, even those who are under our umbrella covering. I have one church who gave over $150,000 last year and told me once they give it to me, its mine to do with as I see fit. ( we have a good working relationship, and they know it will not be abused or misused) I have others who send me $25 a year and they want a penny by penny breakdown.

What do you feel you need to see from IO in order to justify them receiving the tithe from the local church, whatever that amount is ?

[Pastor Bill]

Paul, I agree with the attitude you mentioned, we give as unto the Lord, and what is done with it from there is out of our hands, but these churches do have a relationship with you, and have built that trust in you and your ministry.

I wish we had more of that with the IO, I think it would be easier to handle these issues, but currently there is too much mistrust, and it makes it harder to get to the place where it works as you are stating.

I paid my personal ministry tithes to the state offices well before I saw the changes we've had in KY, but now that these things have come, I can tell there is more of a freedom and relationship there now, and we are reaping the benefits from it, I just would love to see that higher up the chain.