What is this NAZI Germany?

[Gerald Creasy]

An anonymous mysterious call and a church community is raided and 400 children are seized from their mothers.

Whatever happened to "due prossess"?


First the Waco Wackos, then the polygamists...what is next?

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

[Dr. Ron]

I agree with you Gerald.

Due process is still the order of the day.

While I do not particularly agree with the "theology" of the cult, I do believe they are entitled to due process. We have a huge problem with "meth" addiction here. Children are removed from those homes only to be returned if the "parent" begins recovery treatment.

I feel so sorry for the mothers of those children .....however they came into the world. Those are not unfit mothers......

And btw, didn't Hilary say something about "it takes a village"?

[PastorDaniel]

I agree too....most of thee cult type beliefs have been around in one shape or another for thousands of years.

Most of our Biblcal patriarchs of the old testament were polygamists. I personally don't think it should be illegal.

Look at all the people that have been divorced multiple times leaving children and families broken many times over.

Look at the number of couples who simply cohabitate and mooch off the government for welfare and children's care.

Look at the number of people who are involved in open relationships, wife swapping and all that.

None of that is illegal....so why should it be illegal for someone to want to have multiple wives, lots of children and keep them all together as one big happy family.

I'm not even touching this from a stand point of Biblically right or wrong....so don't anyone try and turn this on me....One Wife is headache enough for me!

I just don't think it's right for the Government to stick it's nose into a religion and say they can't do something when they are allowing things to go on that is so much worse.

[TW]

Gerald,
While I share your views that due process is required, there was indeed due process in this. It wasn't just one anonymous phone call, there were a series of calls over the time span of several weeks, and the identity of the caller was known. She was a 15 year old girl that had been forced to marry a 50 year old man. The raid was carried out under a court order. I have been following this for the last week or so, and believe that the state and local governments acted in a responsible manner.


TW

[Gerald Creasy]

Gerald,
While I share your views that due process is required, there was indeed due process in this. It wasn't just one anonymous phone call, there were a series of calls over the time span of several weeks, and the identity of the caller was known. She was a 15 year old girl that had been forced to marry a 50 year old man. The raid was carried out under a court order. I have been following this for the last week or so, and believe that the state and local governments acted in a responsible manner.


TW

That is completely different than what I am hearing. I'm hearing the call was anonymous (a 16 year old) and they can't even find her.

here's a news excerpt:

SAN ANGELO, Texas - Where is the girl?

Thirteen days have passed since Texas authorities entered a polygamous sect’s ranch in Eldorado and removed every child living there, but they still do not know if they have the 16-year-old whose calls for help moved them to act.

And there are questions about whether she really exists.

“It’s all a farce,” says Annette, one FLDS woman whose children are in state custody.

Says Donna: “They searched. Did they find her?”

Skeptics point to a number of problems with the caller’s story, which Texas authorities acknowledge was key to the dramatic raid. No call for help, no raid.

FLDS women who were in state shelters with their children until Monday say investigators appeared desperate to find “Sarah” and were grilling girls by that name.

There also are discrepancies between what the girl said about her “spiritual husband” and what is known about the man later named in the search and arrest warrant first used to enter the YFZ Ranch, owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[Gerald Creasy]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24141460/

MSNBC write up.

Look at the armored tanks in that article.

At FOx News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351450,00.html

"The sexual abuse and all of these reports that are coming through are not accurate," said Janet, who said she has five of her 12 children in state custody. "It seems as though, often times people judge from their own hearts — other people — and this is what we are victims of."

Janet told FOX News that they strive to live "pure, virtuous lives" at the ranch, though she admitted her husband has more wives than just her.

"We are a very private people, and we like to give that privilege to anyone else to be what they are," said mother Shannon.

Another woman claimed officials "deceived" and "lied to us continually" when they raided the ranch.

[TW]

Now balance those media reports against the Affidavit in Support of Original Petition for Protection of a Child

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/affidavit.pdf

and the Affidavit for Search and Arrest Warrant

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/FLDSaffidavit.pdf

There was due process.

Answer this for me, If this had come to light in any other form, that is to say, the police had not raided the compound, and you read of the possible abuses, would you not be among the most vocal raising the cry and hue for the state to intervene on behalf of the children?

Your initial reaction seems to be emotionally based, which is what the media reports play on.

BTW, that is not an armored tank, it is an APC (Armored Personnel Carrier), and the only weapons visible are the small arms carried by the SWAT team riding in the APC.


TW

[Gerald Creasy]

Now balance those media reports against the Affidavit in Support of Original Petition for Protection of a Child

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/affidavit.pdf

and the Affidavit for Search and Arrest Warrant

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/FLDSaffidavit.pdf

There was due process.

Answer this for me, If this had come to light in any other form, that is to say, the police had not raided the compound, and you read of the possible abuses, would you not be among the most vocal raising the cry and hue for the state to intervene on behalf of the children?

Your initial reaction seems to be emotionally based, which is what the media reports play on.

BTW, that is not an armored tank, it is an APC (Armored Personnel Carrier), and the only weapons visible are the small arms carried by the SWAT team riding in the APC.


TW

TW I'll have to disagree. Perhaps "due process" is not the correct word.

I do not believe that each mother of the hundreds arrested were "innocent until proven guilty" .

Based upon nothing more than hearsay, hundreds of children were terrorized and women had their children torn from them.

As A six wheeled armored vehicle rolls in against 400 children and their families, I doubt they all stopped to bicker over whether it was a "properly defined military vehicle" or no.

And have you seen the shots of the snipers posted around the compound?

The US government is good at blowing away women standing in the doorway of their home holding babies (Ruby Ridge), sending military men in to pull toddlers out of closets, and conducting military manuevers on religious communities.

I am not comfortable with any of it.