strength in corporate prayer

[scooter]

BOYS BOYS.....or as your grandpa would say....."Hey boooyssss"

It's not about the numbers or the intensity.....it's about the unity.......get it?

Response: And exactly how does one have unity without another?

[A2JGirl]

I think praying and fasting together is more about what it does in us than it is about "getting God to hear us". When I ask people to pray for me, I'm not thinking "more prayers = more power" but it encourages me to know that people are praying.

Interesting discussion here. I think it's good to step back once in awhile and think about what we believe and say and why.

[Full Quiver]

This thread is more about prayer and whether or not lots of folks praying can get God's ear over and above one or two people praying. Sure the church prayed on Pentecost and I hate to spoil your theology but they didn't call down the Holy Ghost. He was preordained to show up that day and whether they were praying or not He was on His way. Sure the Bible tells us that many were praying for peter and then he showed up free from jail but does it say to do that or do we just see that they did it? Is it a historical record or an admonishment? Where was such doctrine taught to the early church?

Jesus got alone when He prayed, Most of the time. Sometimes He had most if not all leave the room while He prayed.

As far as fasting goes, Dr. Ron is exactly right. Fasting is to get YOUR own self under subjection and has no power with God. We are taught and told to fast but if you do so with the intent to receive from God for your food sacrifice then you are in serious spiritual distress.

[paul]

[quote="Dr. Ron"]BOYS BOYS.....or as your grandpa would say....."Hey boooyssss"

It's not about the numbers or the intensity.....it's about the unity.......get it?[quote]

I'm glad someone finally said it !! TKU, Dr. Ron

[Gerald Creasy]

Response: Lot of people calling you for prayer are there? Strength?

Which means what?

Your strength is the ability to argue non-issues.

I remember a time when a church of 200 plus prayed, screamed hollered, cried, spoke in tounges shreiked and prayed when a family brought a five year old child into the church in SHEER agony from the death throes of lukemia.

There WERE MORE than two or three Gathered together.
There was agreement.
And Dr Ron and Paul there was unity.

THAT CHILD DIED.

If this is such a non issue WHY DOES REALITY TELL US DIFFERENT THAT WHAT YOU CLAIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????

[oletimer]

I hope that I can get this point out like I'm feeling it right now. But some how I really thing that prayers to God are not the (and if I might use this term) big issues to God as they are to us as He already knows our thoughts of our heart, yet requires that we pray. To think that one could have a bargin chip with God silly of every sort.

I feel its when we humble our selves before God, that God is touched in love for us. That when we come together as one, then our own spirituality is strengthen, and God is honor even more.

Even when we pray by our self, be it for one hour or a day or even more, it is time well spent. If you do it say get a way for even a half day, you will find a difference in yourself.

I hope that this will taken as encouragment and not as head butts.

[scooter]

Response: Lot of people calling you for prayer are there? Strength?

Which means what?

Your strength is the ability to argue non-issues.

I remember a time when a church of 200 plus prayed, screamed hollered, cried, spoke in tounges shreiked and prayed when a family brought a five year old child into the church in SHEER agony from the death throes of lukemia.

There WERE MORE than two or three Gathered together.
There was agreement.
And Dr Ron and Paul there was unity.

THAT CHILD DIED.

If this is such a non issue WHY DOES REALITY TELL US DIFFERENT THAT WHAT YOU CLAIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????

Response: So now you reject Bible for experience? OOOHH what great faith!

So according to you, prayer, unity, agreement is what, just stupid?

Real solid footing there.

[Gerald Creasy]

Response: Lot of people calling you for prayer are there? Strength?

Which means what?

Your strength is the ability to argue non-issues.

I remember a time when a church of 200 plus prayed, screamed hollered, cried, spoke in tounges shreiked and prayed when a family brought a five year old child into the church in SHEER agony from the death throes of lukemia.

There WERE MORE than two or three Gathered together.
There was agreement.
And Dr Ron and Paul there was unity.

THAT CHILD DIED.

If this is such a non issue WHY DOES REALITY TELL US DIFFERENT THAT WHAT YOU CLAIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????

Response: So now you reject Bible for experience? OOOHH what great faith!

So according to you, prayer, unity, agreement is what, just stupid?

Real solid footing there.

So your response is what?

"Real events don't happen???"

And THAT is supposed to be solid footing?????


If the Bible (as you interpret it) is as you say then Jesus himself met all the "Prayer amplification" qualities when he prayed along with his disciples, since there was numbers and since there was unity and since he was gathered there with them THEN WHAT HE PRAYED SHOULD HAVE BEEN ANSWERED (according to your "Biblical Prayer amplification construct")

But "the cup" didn't pass did it?

WHY?

In fact if Numbers, agreement and unity increase the chances of Prayers being accomplished, there is no reason to pray "Thy will be done" because we are trying to "GET" OUR will done by agreement, numbers and unity.

[scooter]

So your response is what?

"Real events don't happen???"

And THAT is supposed to be solid footing?????


If the Bible (as you interpret it) is as you say then Jesus himself met all the "Prayer amplification" qualities when he prayed along with his disciples, since there was numbers and since there was unity and since he was gathered there with them THEN WHAT HE PRAYED SHOULD HAVE BEEN ANSWERED (according to your "Biblical Prayer amplification construct")

But "the cup" didn't pass did it?

WHY?

In fact if Numbers, agreement and unity increase the chances of Prayers being accomplished, there is no reason to pray "Thy will be done" because we are trying to "GET" OUR will done by agreement, numbers and unity.

Response: I believe in the power of prayer, call me crazy. I beleive in the power of Christian unity.

I believe the scriptural injuctions to call for the elders of the church to pray. I believe in healing.

I don't get caught up in the doubt-filled delusions of why do babies die , why does bad things happen to good people, and why does good things happen to bad people. I see that only as a tool of the enemy. God does not have to stroke my intellect to make me feel good. I believe the Bible.

I have never said not to pray according to God's will. I tire of the twist.

[Dr. Ron]

Gerald.

I obviously didn't make myself as clear as I should.

I was not speaking of getting God to answer prayer. I would have gathered the whole multitude of counselors to pray for my sisiter who died of cancer if I had thought that.

Sometimes we just need to unite in prayer to be able to say "Father, not my will, but thine be done". I need to know that I have the prayers of the people that lift my spirits....that they are asking God to help me lead them in the way He wants me to lead them.

I agree that volumn, nor numbers will get God's attention and change his mind about His will....but it CAN make me more willing to accept His will.

I admit to still needing my brothers and sisters in the Lord as part of my support group. I am not able to walk by myself.....and I have not met the man who is.....

Prayer means a lot of things. It makes a difference in our lives......

I have said for years that the cliche that says "Prayer changes things" is wrong......I believe that prayer changes people. As I humble myself to God, prayer is the only way I can communicate my heart to him.....and then the Holy Spirit makes intercession for me with words I can't even begin to imagine......and I would be lost without that...

Gerald, and Scooter....don't over analyze this.....it's our communication with God.....no more no less.

[Mike Vande]

Hey Gerald, Daniel was heard the first moment he prayed. But the answer to his prayer was held up by demonic interference. That kinda puts a cat among the pigeons for folks who insist that God's Work can't be held up. And, it must be remembered that Daniel kept praying till he got his answer, the angelic bearer of which did not rebuke him for having so little faith that his prayer was heard, or accuse him of trying to twist God's Arm into doing something HE didn't intend by continuing, even though he didn't get an immediate answer.

Then, there was Hezekiah, who was healed of a boil that was killing him, even after the prophet of God gave him the Word that he should put his house in order because he was gonna die. Later on, he had to watch his kids die, which made him wish he had accepted God's original plan and left this world before that all happened.

Look, it's just not as simple as any of us would like it to be. You know how I feel about the WOF movement, and all the other dung like it that has come down the pike, calling itself Christianity between demands for wealth and physical healing, uncontrollable laughter and frenzies of palsied vibrating. But the Author of the Bible does call us to pray, in groups and alone, without ceasing and just once before standing in faith and waiting for the answer, and in a number of differnt other ways. Unless WE who think the WOF-ers are wrong in reducing God to a set of principles and rules refuse to do the same by allowing Him to be a participant in a dynamic process of living out our faith("faith" is not a dirty word, it just has a different definition than the WOF-ers give it).

Every theological construct falls apart at some point. That is NOT an indictment of theology or theologians; it is a reminder and affirmation of the infinite nature of God. If finite beings with limited intelligence can create a description of anything that covers every possible facet of it's nature and character, it is not infinite. So, any hope of understanding God totally, and being able to explain His every action and how we should relate to Him is a forlorn one. The best we can hope for is a working theology that allows us to operate in this world while we get to know God the Person better, and learn to recognize His Voice, and his Hand in what is happening to and around us.

Yes, God does want corporate prayer from us in some circumstances, solo prayer in others, and anticipates or operates without any prayer in still others. Because our view of reality is limited, and even our understanding of what we view is skewed by our emotional and intellectual baggage, sometimes we have to try more than one form of prayer to get an answer, whether that answer is yes, no, or wait. Praying with ALL prayer IS a scriptural commandment. If solo prayer in earthly and heavenly languages is all there is, scripture would be more likely to enjoin us to BOTH kinds of prayer rather than ALL prayer. You may not find a proof text that says to pray in groups, but it seems to me that the acceptability of it is present in scripture the same way the Trinity and the sinfulness of smoking crack are.

[one love]

FQ are you implying that since it was destined for the holy ghost ot come on pentecost that they did not have to be in unity?

The answer to this is simple, yes God does honour us praying in unity. Notice i said in unity. Not to change Gods mind on anything but praying together in perfect unity to find the mind of God not change it.
They were in unity when the holy ghost fell upon them, they were not seeking to change Gods mind on anything but rather seeking him.

There is no doubt that coorperate prayer is biblical, they got together many times in prayer, in unity and God blessed.

[paul]

This thread is more about prayer and whether or not lots of folks praying can get God's ear over and above one or two people praying. Sure the church prayed on Pentecost and I hate to spoil your theology but they didn't call down the Holy Ghost. He was preordained to show up that day and whether they were praying or not He was on His way. Sure the Bible tells us that many were praying for peter and then he showed up free from jail but does it say to do that or do we just see that they did it? Is it a historical record or an admonishment? Where was such doctrine taught to the early church?

Jesus got alone when He prayed, Most of the time. Sometimes He had most if not all leave the room while He prayed.

As far as fasting goes, Dr. Ron is exactly right. Fasting is to get YOUR own self under subjection and has no power with God. We are taught and told to fast but if you do so with the intent to receive from God for your food sacrifice then you are in serious spiritual distress.

IMHO, I think Pauls letter to Timothy is a great example of encouraging the church in corporate prayer. The fact that it is acceptable unto God, and the results that men might be saved and live in peace. Sounds like we are still in need of it, badly.

Paul's First Letter to Timothy
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and Christ Jesus our hope; 1:2 to Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

1:3 As I urged you when I was going into Macedonia, stay at Ephesus that you might command certain men not to teach a different doctrine, 1:4 neither to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which cause disputes, rather than God’s stewardship, which is in faith— 1:5 but the goal of this command is love, out of a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith; 1:6 from which things some, having missed the mark, have turned aside to vain talking; 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither what they say, nor about what they strongly affirm. 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully, 1:9 as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1:10 for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine; 1:11 according to the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 1:12 And I thank him who enabled me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he counted me faithful, appointing me to service; 1:13 although I was before a blasphemer, a persecutor, and insolent. However, I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1:14 The grace of our Lord abounded exceedingly with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1:15 The saying is faithful and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1:16 However, for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first, Jesus Christ might display all his patience, for an example of those who were going to believe in him for eternal life. 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1:18 This instruction I commit to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to you, that by them you may wage the good warfare; 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust away made a shipwreck concerning the faith; 1:20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered to Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme.

2:1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks, be made for all men: 2:2 for kings and all who are in high places; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and reverence. 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times; 2:7 to which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth in Christ, not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

2:8 I desire therefore that the men in every place pray, lifting up holy hands without anger and doubting.

[Gerald Creasy]

Gerald.

I obviously didn't make myself as clear as I should.

I was not speaking of getting God to answer prayer. I would have gathered the whole multitude of counselors to pray for my sisiter who died of cancer if I had thought that.

Sometimes we just need to unite in prayer to be able to say "Father, not my will, but thine be done". I need to know that I have the prayers of the people that lift my spirits....that they are asking God to help me lead them in the way He wants me to lead them.

I agree that volumn, nor numbers will get God's attention and change his mind about His will....but it CAN make me more willing to accept His will.

I admit to still needing my brothers and sisters in the Lord as part of my support group. I am not able to walk by myself.....and I have not met the man who is.....

Prayer means a lot of things. It makes a difference in our lives......

I have said for years that the cliche that says "Prayer changes things" is wrong......I believe that prayer changes people. As I humble myself to God, prayer is the only way I can communicate my heart to him.....and then the Holy Spirit makes intercession for me with words I can't even begin to imagine......and I would be lost without that...

Gerald, and Scooter....don't over analyze this.....it's our communication with God.....no more no less.

If I may quote myself I said under Pastor Garys first post regarding turning FOTW into a Prayer Retreat:

But it makes US feel better and more holy and more dedicated to undergo a pilgramage, and How We Feel is all that matters in the modern church.

While I said that sarcasticly, targeting excess, that does not mean I do not believe that the effect of prayer -even among numbers- has no consequences amonst or within ourselfs (In other words, I agree with you and did so before things erupted).

Scripture is replete with examples of corporate prayer, but in no way does it say BECAUSE OF THAT corporate prayer....you got a better chance of getting your will over what God decides.


I believe this is an issue (not a non-issue as my blood claims) because we have a concept of God somewhat different than what God is presented in scripture.

God says ABOUT HIMSELF Exd 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Today we look upon everything negative in our life as an attack of Satan and if we could just get ahold of God in the right way or if we could just find a man with that special anointing we could change what God HIMSELF has allowed.

ALL THE WHILE putting the incidents of our lives in the purview of Satan, denying God of our fielty and trust, and hoping we can find a magical formula to coax him out of inactivity unto a marvelous work in our life.

I am glad for Job, who had no such view but stated it flatly "Though he slay me....."

Modern Christianity and especially Pentecostals deny "God that may slay" or that he would even do such a thing, we even deny a God that makes someone blind...and so prayer formulas, Healing ministers and WOF abuses run rampant.














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[Pastor Bill]

What is a powerful prayer, Gerald you seem to assume it's a prayer that changes God's mind (which does happen in one or two biblical examples, but I'll agree is rare, and probably NOT the main purpose of prayer)

I think a powerful prayer isn't as much about changing God, but changing ourselves, our outlook, our perspective. Sometimes it's about changing our situation, but often that's not the biggest problem.

Large corporate prayer, dedicated places or times for prayer can strengthen our faith and our focus assisting us to RECEIVE what God is saying. That is a more powerful prayer.