About healing...

[Pastor Gary]

My friend, Jordan Seng, has an approach to teaching on healing that was new to me. I am posting some copy/paste from his notes here for your consideration:
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Essence of Power Equation Teaching

God has set things up so that we partner with Him in His work, and He arranges for us to work hard. God works through us. Accordingly, He usually doesn't simply grant miracle power, but rather we develop it through sacrifice and preparation. Power comes from the Holy Spirit, but we work to become better conduits of it.

Four basic things contribute to the development of miracle-working power in us. They work together as in a mathematical equation, each adds to the next, and a high value for one can compensate for a low value in another.

Authority + Gifting + Faith + Unction = Power

Add the four elements together to get power for miracles. The more power the miracle requires (cancer is harder to heal than allergies), the more developed one will need to be in the four areas.

The elements are variables, and there are things we can do to make them increase or decrease.

We get authority by being close to Jesus in his army, like a Private gets authority when he carries a letter from the General. Authority is a measure of obedience: When we act or live on Jesus’ orders, we have more authority over demons and diseases. Sin does not make God love you less, but it will lessen your spiritual authority. Live obediently, obey fully, and you will have a lot of authority. Acts 19:13ff.

Gifting refers to spiritual gifts. You don't have to have the gift of healing to heal someone, but if you do, your overall level of power for healing will go way up. You can get more gifting by asking God for a given gift, or you can get more gifting by finding someone who has the gift you want and working together with that person in ministry (e.g., find someone with the gift of healing when you visit the hospital). 1st Corinthians 12.

The more faith you have that God is with you and will do a miracle, the more likely that miracle is to happen. Mark 6: No faith in Jesus’ home town, therefore he could not do any miracles there. Mark 5, the cynics tease Jesus when he approaches the dead girl for resurrection, so he kicks them out of the room. You get faith by knowing that God loves you more than you can imagine. One should try to encourage faith in the environment in which you minister. Acts 14:8-10.

Unction literally means "filling" or "flowing." It is a measure of your capacity, your diameter, for the flow of Holy Spirit power. Spirit does not flow well through flesh; spirit flows well through spirit. Increase your unction by living according to the Spirit and crucifying the flesh. Authority comes through obedience, unction comes through mortification, through spiritual transformation. Prayer and fasting are excellent ways to clean the flesh out -- to get the gunk out of our pipes so that we can flow well. Mark 9:14-29: "This kind only comes out though prayer and fasting."

[Pastor Gary]

This web page lists "Every Example of Healing in the New Testament" and supports Jordan Seng's other area of healing teaching: that WE -- believers -- heal people (by God's power, and under His authority).

It also supports Jordan's contention that "there is not a single example in the New Testament where Jesus or anybody else healed a person by asking God to do the healing. In every case, the healing was done through a human by the power of the Holy Spirit."

[Gerald Creasy]

It also supports Jordan's contention that "there is not a single example in the New Testament where Jesus or anybody else healed a person by asking God to do the healing. In every case, the healing was done through a human by the power of the Holy Spirit."

The conclusion is in ERROR. And plays fast and loose with facts and categories.

Jesus himself is God therefore those who came to him and asked (GOD) were healed: The Roman Centurion who made the request and believed it would be done. The blind man in Mark 10. The leper in Matthew 8. Those just off the top of my head.

[Pastor Gary]

The conclusion is in ERROR. And plays fast and loose with facts and categories.

Jesus himself is God therefore those who came to him and asked (GOD) were healed: The Roman Centurion who made the request and believed it would be done. The blind man in Mark 10. The leper in Matthew 8. Those just off the top of my head.

Well, Gerald, at least it wasn't a crazy Pentecostal teaching it. He is Presbyterian.

[Poimen]

The more power the miracle requires (cancer is harder to heal than allergies), the more developed one will need to be in the four areas.

Rubbish.


And as for the idea that there are no examples of believers praying for God to heal the sick, well here are several examples:

Acts 4:29-30
And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

Acts 28:8
And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

2 Corinthians 12:8-9
For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

And then of course...

James 5:14-15
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

[Dr. Ron]

Well, now I have heard it all. And by George, I guess it's what we have all been missing all these years.

We just didn't have the ability to quantumize the equation. Well, by golly, I won't make that mistake again.....

And just think, with a little more fasting and prayer and stuff, I can go right on past those little ole pesky headache things and get right to the real issues of cancer, heart disease and such,

This just doesn't stand up to the test Gary. Sorry. When I have seen these kinds of miracles in my ministry, it has taken no more or less of any of these elements.....just the timing of God.

[Pastor Gary]

I have invited Jordan to Jude2, time permitting, to join this discussion and defend his thesis.

[Gerald Creasy]

I have invited Jordan to Jude2, time permitting, to join this discussion and defend his thesis.

Really?

I would love to know his answer to my objection.

[Pastor Gary]

I have invited Jordan to Jude2, time permitting, to join this discussion and defend his thesis.

Really?

I would love to know his answer to my objection.

Yes, indeed I did. I emailed him last night. Not sure if he is in town right now or traveling, but he is a nice guy, thoughtful and fully able to speak for himself if interested.

[Full Quiver]

would you care to share your thoughts on this teaching PG?

[Pastor Gary]

would you care to share your thoughts on this teaching PG?

I'd prefer to let Mr. Seng respond first. He tried to register today but couldn't find the Authorization Code. I think he will try again.

[dolfan]

You mentioned a week or so ago, I think, that you had encountered this new teaching and I wondered what it was. Now that you've shared it, and we've seen some ably put objections, I'm curious if the teacher will jump into the discussion. I'm also curious as to your assessment, and why the teaching impacted you (however little or much and in whatever way). I've noticed over the past months that you're exploring and poking in your own brain and heart about things, good questions about stuff.

How do you describe the, for lack of a better word on my part, new curiosity inside you?

[Pastor Gary]

You mentioned a week or so ago, I think, that you had encountered this new teaching and I wondered what it was. Now that you've shared it, and we've seen some ably put objections, I'm curious if the teacher will jump into the discussion. I'm also curious as to your assessment, and why the teaching impacted you (however little or much and in whatever way). I've noticed over the past months that you're exploring and poking in your own brain and heart about things, good questions about stuff.

How do you describe the, for lack of a better word on my part, new curiosity inside you?

I believe in healing. I have a million unanswered questions about the mechanics, and the "why" and "how" part.

People wearing glasses pray for the blind and the blind eyes open.
Why? Why doesn't the person wearing glasses get healed?

If it takes faith to be healed, whose faith? The sick person? The one praying? Some third party?
Lazarus had zero faith -- he was dead.

Is it just some random, try-it-and-see-maybe-it-will-work-maybe-not that we attribute to God's sovereignty, or can we be more certain that "if we do "A" the result will be "B"?"

Why do we see partial healings... "touches" from the Lord... is that the way Jesus healed? Seems to me he healed completely, usually immediately, and permanently.

I believe we -- the church -- have lost something in our understanding and praxis of healing, and I want to know, in my heart and mind, what is a Biblical, balanced, real view. I am listening to not only Jordan Seng, but reading a lot.

I know Jordan's views were not adequately represented by my posting of his summary notes, and many here disregarded them on the surface, but he does a much better job of expounding upon his teaching in depth, and I can attest that his ministry has seen amazing results -- many miraculous healings of diseases beyond medical explanation.

[rjjunior]

PG, I share many of the same questions regarding healing as you. I'm too analytical to simply say, "Well, it's all about God's timing." I'm sure it is true enough at certain times, but all too often its the safe rout for a lack of faith, authority, whatever. The idea of timing may fall under the category of "unction," though not defined the way it is here. I would define unction as the "quickening" of the Holy Spirit that says, "Do it now" or "Say this," etc. The "kairos moment" sort of thing. The definition you present would simply fit under the authority heading.

The major issue I see with the presented hypothesis is the attempt to come up with a formula to capture a transcendent work of God. It's something I try to do often and I'm usually wrong. God will quickly defy my logic.

I would agree with the elements he suggests as crucial: authority, faith, unction, gifting (not so much)...

I've done a small share of study on the subject and mostly find good theories with obvious holes and legitimate objections. With all that said, I'm with you...I believe in healing!

Mildly related testimony: Many years ago, I was suffering with an excruciating tooth ache. I was unable to drive and had to pull into a parking lot. I prayed something like, "God, I don't understand healing. Don't know when or why or how you do it, all I know is I can't take this. You can, so will you?" Immediately the pain vanished. Didn't bother me at all for over a year. Then it came back with vengance since I had neglected to get it worked on during the "Grace period." Notably, God didn't heal it a second time.

[Pastor Bill]

Don't know that I can completely agree with it or completely disagree, other than I think it's not addition but multiplication, because if the unction (leading) of God (God's will) is 0, then the whole thing has got to be 0.

We cannot go against God's will, there are instances biblically where God has changes His mind, but even in that, it's still more about His Will, make that one adjustment, and I think I can see where he's going, still don't know if I agree completely or not.