COGOP name change

[one love]

Again I am curious becasue I have watched that tape so many times and when I came here and other forums and heard them talking about those M/I when they were denounced by some before becasue it was leaning the other way I was shocked to see what some were saying they meant.

I am not exactly sure what that paragraph really means. Please elaborate.

(I was present during one of those "repentance assemblies" and can tell you unequivocally that I hit the floor and understood EXACTLY what was being said... we (COGOP) were most definitely being chastised by the Lord for our arrogance and called to repent of the exclusive position we held. There was zero doubt about it for me, in that big room in Cleveland that day.)

actually PG the message I have to assume you are refering to was when the HG said ye have been haughty to other christians...yet it also went to say I have chosen you and will bring you to one...

another message was about when Ron Hamm gave up his time because he felt the Lord was going to do something.


Another went on to with extreme caution elaborate on what he wanted and I can if you like compile many of them together form 1994-1989 it will take me a while becuase some have been left out of the minutes for instance a message was preached and a message was given out...

I have the minutes and videos it will take some time and I dont have it at the moment but when I do I will present the messages for you. Now there was a call for the church to stop being haughty to other christians but as I said it still never said anything contrary to the beliefs most all the messages confirmed t stay on that tract.

Mean no ill will sorry If I have offended ya

[scooter]

OKAY I HAVE A FIX ALL!

We can just add Apologetic to the beginning of our name!

That way once and for all we could be the Aplogetic Church of God of Prophecy. That way we can please all peoples. Keep the of prophecy or how else would people know what we were continually apologizing for. Add Apologetic so that every one knows we're sorry for the things we got wrong in the past.

This is kinda like the whole slavery issue. As a white man I'll NEVER be able to fix what our forefathers did, so in essence I'll forever be quilty of just being me. I can change my name, I'm still guilty.

There will never be enough said to please people.

[Pastor Gary]

This is kinda like the whole slavery issue. As a white man I'll NEVER be able to fix what our forefathers did, so in essence I'll forever be quilty of just being me. I can change my name, I'm still guilty.

There will never be enough said to please people.

You are FREE, my friend! You no longer bear the vicarious guilt for the injustices of your slave-owning ancestors!

Read this Proclamation of Amnesty and Pardon Granted to
All Persons of European Descent

[DaJudge]

I am interested in hearing what you were told to repent for? I have it on video and surely I have the ones from 88 as well and when WP was on stage and the HG said
"I have a church within a church a nation within a naiton repent or you will go no further and I will pull my remnant out" (paraphrasing) and others that said "repent or you will go no further"

That's interesting one love. Let me preface this with saying that I'm not trying to be confrontational with you here. I respect you.

That being said, I'd like to know if you believe that you are a "remnant the the Holy Ghost pulled out". If so, do you believe that TCOG is the "exclusive bride of Christ"? Do you still believe that every Christian in the end times will come and join TCOG?

If so, I find it hard to understand how an intelligent man like you can hold these views, when your membership only decreases year upon year. You all started out with assemblies at Memorial Auditorium, then went to North Cleveland, and now you are at the Conn Center. You keep getting smaller, rather than taking in those masses that are supposed to flood into you. You seem to think that the Holy Ghost was saying that if COGOP didn't repent we would go no further, but how much further has TCOG gone? Only backwards in my opinion.

Again, not trying to be hateful, because I like you. I'm just trying to understand where the TCOG is coming from in these beliefs.

[scooter]

You are FREE, my friend! You no longer bear the vicarious guilt for the injustices of your slave-owning ancestors!

Response: If the offended were only as gracious and forgiving as Dr. Williams.

[oletimer]

Gerald Creasy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

one love wrote:
Gerald you can say what you will about this and I respect it but there is no denying the verses that say d/r is wrong are you implying now that there is nothing wrong with it at all? All can divore and remarry just because they choose and it is ok? that would be the opposite of the bible not I.

I am saying it is not as cut and dried as traditional COGOP (current COG)would have it being that the Doctrine NEGATES the very words of Jesus with his exception on MaTT 19:9. The wrangle that scripture to fit their doctrine by CREATING A DEFINITION OF A WORD FOUND NO WHERE ELSE ON THE PLANET and is inconsistent with scripture when you read THAT WORD as so definied in scripture.

The wrangle that scripture to fit their doctrine by CREATING A DEFINITION OF A WORD FOUND NO WHERE ELSE ON THE PLANET and is inconsistent with scripture when you read THAT WORD as so definied in scripture

Gerald nobody wrangles the scriptures any more then you do. I've have read a lot of your posts and though a lot of it I don't believe, I try to pass it off as your belief. Everyone has their own beliefs no matter what is said. That is OK, untill you try insult everyone that don't jee/haw with you. I personal find you insulting and at times obnoxious and in very much of prayer. Of course this is my opinion and you don't seem to care about other peoples opinions.

Gerald I try to live my life so that I can die by it. I try live my life to the word of God and to the spirit of the Word. I hope that some day that you can understand what I'm saying.

[Kenya]

OKAY I HAVE A FIX ALL!

We can just add Apologetic to the beginning of our name!

That way once and for all we could be the Aplogetic Church of God of Prophecy. That way we can please all peoples. Keep the of prophecy or how else would people know what we were continually apologizing for. Add Apologetic so that every one knows we're sorry for the things we got wrong in the past.

This is kinda like the whole slavery issue. As a white man I'll NEVER be able to fix what our forefathers did, so in essence I'll forever be quilty of just being me. I can change my name, I'm still guilty.

There will never be enough said to please people.

Now, THAT cracked me up!! Miss you guys!

[Kenya]

Kanya,

Its a general comment, its not for any one person, but I feel it does cover many of us, including myself. I do sometimes get to the point that I truly wish Tomlinson had stayed in IN and stayed a Quaker. His beliefs and ministry, whither by design or default, have become more controvery and confusion than of any lasting value. His abilites would have been better spent.

Mat

Ok. Thanks, Mat.

[pastorables]

Again I am curious becasue I have watched that tape so many times and when I came here and other forums and heard them talking about those M/I when they were denounced by some before becasue it was leaning the other way I was shocked to see what some were saying they meant.

I am not exactly sure what that paragraph really means. Please elaborate.

(I was present during one of those "repentance assemblies" and can tell you unequivocally that I hit the floor and understood EXACTLY what was being said... we (COGOP) were most definitely being chastised by the Lord for our arrogance and called to repent of the exclusive position we held. There was zero doubt about it for me, in that big room in Cleveland that day.)

Was this the same Assembly where the interpretation said something like (paraphrase), "you are beginning to learn that my bloodline runs through many groups"....?! I always received these rebukes from the Holy Ghost as against our arrogance toward other Christians. The Lord was actually dealing with me individually during those days concerning some of the same issues. He gave me some sermons about how we had exalted the body above the Head.

pa

[Pastor Gary]

Was this the same Assembly where the interpretation said something like (paraphrase), "you are beginning to learn that my bloodline runs through many groups"....?! I always received these rebukes from the Holy Ghost as against our arrogance toward other Christians. The Lord was actually dealing with me individually during those days concerning some of the same issues. He gave me some sermons about how we had exalted the body above the Head.

I wish I could remember the exact words... I honestly do not... but I can assure you that at that moment there was NO DOUBT in my mind and spirit what was going on. Your quote certainly captured the essence of what I felt then.

It was early 80s, and I had been going through a particularly turbulent time in my personal and spiritual walk, and it was my first Assembly in a few years. I was totally ambushed by the Holy Spirit in that meeting, and remember feeling heavy conviction and wanting desperately to get out of there, but I was on my knees in total awe and fear.

[one love]

I am interested in hearing what you were told to repent for? I have it on video and surely I have the ones from 88 as well and when WP was on stage and the HG said
"I have a church within a church a nation within a naiton repent or you will go no further and I will pull my remnant out" (paraphrasing) and others that said "repent or you will go no further"

That's interesting one love. Let me preface this with saying that I'm not trying to be confrontational with you here. I respect you.

That being said, I'd like to know if you believe that you are a "remnant the the Holy Ghost pulled out". If so, do you believe that TCOG is the "exclusive bride of Christ"? Do you still believe that every Christian in the end times will come and join TCOG?

If so, I find it hard to understand how an intelligent man like you can hold these views, when your membership only decreases year upon year. You all started out with assemblies at Memorial Auditorium, then went to North Cleveland, and now you are at the Conn Center. You keep getting smaller, rather than taking in those masses that are supposed to flood into you. You seem to think that the Holy Ghost was saying that if COGOP didn't repent we would go no further, but how much further has TCOG gone? Only backwards in my opinion.

Again, not trying to be hateful, because I like you. I'm just trying to understand where the TCOG is coming from in these beliefs.

actually even with the splits we have went up in numbers, not much the past few years becuase of JN but we have had many new churches go up, especially in Va.
Dajudge I respect you very much im not offended at all. Like I said even with the issues the last few years our numbers are still climbing.

Last year we increased in numbers even with James nabors and Brother carters region not being included.

[one love]

Was this the same Assembly where the interpretation said something like (paraphrase), "you are beginning to learn that my bloodline runs through many groups"....?! I always received these rebukes from the Holy Ghost as against our arrogance toward other Christians. The Lord was actually dealing with me individually during those days concerning some of the same issues. He gave me some sermons about how we had exalted the body above the Head.

I wish I could remember the exact words... I honestly do not... but I can assure you that at that moment there was NO DOUBT in my mind and spirit what was going on. Your quote certainly captured the essence of what I felt then.

It was early 80s, and I had been going through a particularly turbulent time in my personal and spiritual walk, and it was my first Assembly in a few years. I was totally ambushed by the Holy Spirit in that meeting, and remember feeling heavy conviction and wanting desperately to get out of there, but I was on my knees in total awe and fear.

I can bring them out for you if you give me time I have already found at least 6.

1984, 1985, 1986, 1989 are the ,main ones.

Yes there was a message as I said that you are being "haughty" with other christians which was true but never went to say or imply a change. Actually msot of these messages were confirming strong church messages. If I was a faster typer you would be amazed. I tell you what I will try to gather the few I have around that have been unpacked from my study, deal.

My point is all those messages put together goes against the idea of changing theology, IMHO and I respect each one of yours

I do have most all the minutes from the eighties only thing is there are numerous of messages that just say brother so and so preached and the HG gave out a message and that is where my videos help even more. But i have to unpack all the old videos and see if my VCR still works since I have not used it since the last time i watched all the old videos etc. which has been some years now.

[one love]

Again, not trying to be hateful, because I like you. I'm just trying to understand where the TCOG is coming from in these beliefs.

well look at what happened in the 20's look at how many churches have been set in order in 15 years of starting over.

[Joey]

Sometimes a name change is needed.
Abram --> Abraham,
Sarai --> Sarah
Jacob --> Israel
Simon --> Peter
Saul --> Paul
When I married my wife (who btw, pointed me to this final thought process), she changed her last name because it represented something.

We all know that modyfying the COGOP name won't fix everything, but it is one way to say 'I'm different now.'

A Note to the lurking elders in Cleveland that have the power to consider change in our church;
I hope that you will see that those posting here are not trying to spoil what is good about the church. We love the church and realize that any time it hurts, we all suffer. As voices for many silent ones, we're only a cross cut of those trying to help our church make a right change and a 2/3 "yes" vote and several "maybe's" & "others" are enough to consider that this is a real issue to be dealt with.

[Full Quiver]

No offense Kevin but what happened in the 20's and 30's in the "CoGoP' as far as growth is monumental when compared to the reorganization of TCoG.
TcoG organizes churches with 1 member in some cases and many that are 10 or smaller. Many of these churches have not grown to more than 20 members let alone even regular visitors in the past 15 years.

Let me give an example of the Nashville area TCoGs. They started with 23 folks after the SA in 93. Since they gained around 100 from the outlying counties. They all for the most part were members of the same church. Then several small churches were organized in those counties by transferring members. This is not growth but redistribution of membership.

Most of the growth has been children who have been reared in these churches since 93 and children that grew up in the 80's and have come back to the only thing they have ever known. This is not growth either. It is virtually the same as the polygamists groups do; have families and call it a big church. I am not referring to multiple marriages and statutory rape but merely families being called churches.

As far as churches overseas. I know for a fact, a solid fact, that the overseas churches are affiliated with TCoG, TCoGNC, CoG, and the AoG. I have seen video footage, spoke with folks regularly on the phone and by email which has proven to reveal this disturbing truth to me. Each group sends resources and finances and for the conventions and videos they wave the flag and preach the message (which is not so different in most areas) of the group that happens to be in country at said time. I almost attended a trip to Haiti where the TCOG district overseer served as the interpretor for the TCOG NC missionary trip. I have watched the video and I attended BTI with the district overseer in question. He would call and email our offices in NC and act as a spy if you will because he would tell us what TCoG was doing in country. The same can be said of the Philippines and Africa.