Women In The Church Service

[dave c]

HEALING SHELTER MINISTRIES #124l Written 11JUN08 http://groups.msn.com/AHealingShelter/welcome.msnw

Chapter 14: Part Twelve—Women In The Church Service

by dave c

First Corinthians 14:34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church (NASV).

Oh, me. Surely these two verses are in the running for “Most Controversial Passages in the New Testament” (maybe for the entire Bible). While I mutter to myself when I read anti-charismatic commentaries that simply skip passages that overtly disagree with the writer’s theological positioning, I have to confess that I long to drop 14:34&35 from this series. Firstly, they don’t seem to fit comfortably within Paul’s train of thought throughout the rest of Chapter 14 of First Corinthians regarding speaking in tongues and prophesying during church services—and yet, there they are. Secondly, these two verses appear to contradict Paul’s praise for specific women of the New Testament who were Christian teachers and prophetesses, and his encouragement for women generally to exercise spiritual gifts (1Co 11:5).

Having read a half dozen commentaries and another half dozen study Bible notes regarding these passages, the Life Application Study Bible [New American Standard Bible—Updated Version; Zondervan; Grand Rapids, MI; Copyright 2000; p 2026] provides a concise, yet effective teaching on these verses from First Corinthians: “14:34-35 Does this mean that women should not speak in church services today? It is clear from 11:5 that women prayed and prophesied in public worship. It is also clear in chapters 12-14 that women are given spiritual gifts and are encouraged to exercise them in the body of Christ. Women have much to contribute and can participate in worship services. (IP) In the Corinthian culture, women were not allowed to confront men in public. Apparently some of the women who had become Christians thought that their Christian freedom gave them the right to question the men in public worship. This was causing division in the church. In addition, women of that day did not receive formal religious education as did the men. Women may have been raising questions in the worship services that could have been answered at home without disrupting the services. Paul was asking the women not to flaunt their Christian freedom during worship. The purpose of Paul’s words was to promote unity, not to teach about women’s role in the church.”

It has become the popular practice of the last 40 years or so to make decisions based upon self-interest and unfounded opinion, rather than upon the foundations of truth and common sense. We see this in the rampant, self-indulgent sexuality that is destroying the moral fiber of our nation; that is leaving millions of our citizens with diseases of the mind, body, and spirit; and that has resulted in over 45,000,000 babies slaughtered in the name of ‘the right to choose’. We see this in the victim mentality permeating our society that denies any and all responsibility for personal speech and actions. We see this in the growing seduction of our population into various and sundry welfare programs that finance drug abuse, alcoholism, and government sanctioned vagrancy. And we see this manifest in the hateful speech of rabid feminism as its proponents decry Christianity generally, and Paul specifically, as “sexist, misogynistic, and gynophobic”.

A prime example of second generation anti-Christian feminism is found in the words of Katherine M Rogers: "The foundations of early Christian misogyny — its guilt about sex, its insistence on female subjection, its dread of female seduction — are all in St. Paul's epistles. They provided a convenient supply of divinely inspired misogynistic texts for any Christian writer who chose to use them; his statements on female subjection were still being quoted in the twentieth century opponents of equality for women." (The Troublesome Helpmate: A History of Misogyny in Literature, 1966).

While not a big fan of the historical-critical method as the ‘be all to end all’ approach to Bible interpretation, in the case of First Corinthians 14:34&35, it is essential. While Greek art and philosophy are held in such high regard by the intelligentsia of contemporary Western Culture, it is conveniently forgotten that ancient Greece and Rome were male dominated societies that held women in low regard—and females were considered even lower by the Hebrew culture of 2,000 years ago. It was Christianity, as based upon the writings of Paul and others, that worked to raise the status of women in the Mid-East and throughout Europe to a level greater than that of chattel. At the time of Christ’s first advent, divorce was rampant in Israel and it was granted freely upon the whim of the husband and to the devastation of the estranged wife. It was Jesus who declared, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery" (Mt 19:8&9; NIV). And it was Paul who wrote, There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise (Ga 3:28&29; NIV).

[PastorDaniel]

I appreciate your insight. Just the other day I was talking with a Baptist pastor. He was pretty friendly and we spoke openly about some local Baptist churches turning more charismatic and his was one of them.

However, my excitement was crushed when I told him that I pastored a COGOP and he said something like "My God, Ya'll have Women Pastors"

I was shocked, the conversation was great until the topic of Women Minister's came up and then it ended....like I was the plague or something.

So..... Hoorah.... for all of you women keeping it real in the Pulpit....

[KBevangelist]

So..... Hoorah.... for all of you women keeping it real in the Pulpit....

Cathy Payne, Teresa Taylor, and Sylvia Staten can out preache most men I know.

KB

[Gerald Creasy]

My Baptist seminary friend is more open to "tounges" than he is Women preachers.

I'm beginning to think it's a denominational PET issue:
One of those issues they STAND FIRM on when there is Biblical evidence to the contrary.

[PastorDaniel]

My Baptist seminary friend is more open to "tounges" than he is Women preachers.

I'm beginning to think it's a denominational PET issue:
One of those issues they STAND FIRM on when there is Biblical evidence to the contrary.

Exactly, a golden calf, just like some of ours in the cogop....thing is...I like barbecues....so bring all the golden calves and lets cookout!!

Gerald, if you'll bring the charcoal, I'll bring the grill.

[Steve]

So..... Hoorah.... for all of you women keeping it real in the Pulpit....

Cathy Payne, Teresa Taylor, and Sylvia Staten can out preache most men I know.

KB

And Obama can out speech everybody else in the presidential field too!

[Steve]

there is Biblical evidence to the contrary.

OK, brother, I challenge you on this one. Let's have it.

[KBevangelist]

And Obama can out speech everybody else in the presidential field too!

Out speech?



I take it you don't like women preachers?

KB

[Steve]

I believe that just because someone is good at something, it doesn't necessarily mean they should do it. I don't believe the end justifies the means.

And just to be clear, I believe what the Bible says about this subject, and that COGOP has been wrong about it. I don't think we should have to do big long studies and consult numerous commentaries to reinterpret a simply worded sentence in God's Word to fit our cultures vision of gender roles.

And it's not about what I like it's about what Scripture says.

A very simple question to ask is, "What does the Scripture SAY about women teachers and preachers?" What does it SAY? If someone unfamiliar with Western culture or the Bible asked you that, how would you respond? Would you quote scripture, or would you show them a commentary? We need to ask what the scripture SAYS, not show where Paul saluted those who helped "the work" in an area and say, SEE, they were PREACHING! That's not what it SAYS. The little old grandma who sewed quilts for missions helped "the work". We have not simply stated what the Bible SAYS about this, and have supposed and justified ourselves into asserting that it says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it really says!

Do a word study on the TEXT and see what you find.

[EagerBeaver]

I believe that just because someone is good at something, it doesn't necessarily mean they should do it. I don't believe the end justifies the means.

And just to be clear, I believe what the Bible says about this subject, and that COGOP has been wrong about it. I don't think we should have to do big long studies and consult numerous commentaries to reinterpret a simply worded sentence in God's Word to fit our cultures vision of gender roles.

And it's not about what I like it's about what Scripture says.

A very simple question to ask is, "What does the Scripture SAY about women teachers and preachers?" What does it SAY? If someone unfamiliar with Western culture or the Bible asked you that, how would you respond? Would you quote scripture, or would you show them a commentary? We need to ask what the scripture SAYS, not show where Paul saluted those who helped "the work" in an area and say, SEE, they were PREACHING! That's not what it SAYS. The little old grandma who sewed quilts for missions helped "the work". We have not simply stated what the Bible SAYS about this, and have supposed and justified ourselves into asserting that it says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it really says!

Do a word study on the TEXT and see what you find.

I don't see any evidence in the Bible against women preaching, but I do see evidence against women pastoring...big difference...

[A2JGirl]

I don't see any evidence in the Bible against women preaching, but I do see evidence against women pastoring...big difference...

I agree!

[Steve]

I don't see any evidence in the Bible against women preaching, but I do see evidence against women pastoring...big difference...

Yet COGOP has women pastors, deacons, and I predict before long, bishops. The Bible is clear about what women should teach in Titus 2. Women are not to teach in the church as clearly stated in 1 Cor. 14. Everyone argues that prophesy means preach, and since women prophesy in the Bible, that is the main justification. According to Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

prophesy

PROPH'ESY, v.t. To foretell future events; to predict.

I hate him, for he doth not prophesy good concerning

me, but evil. 1 Kings.22.

1. To foreshow. [Little used.]

PROPH'ESY, v.i. To utter predictions; to make declaration of events to come. Jer.11.

1. In Scripture, to preach; to instruct in religious doctrines; to interpret or explain Scripture or religious subjects; to exhort. 1 Cor.13. Ezek.37.
prophesying

PROPH'ESYING, ppr. Foretelling events.

PROPH'ESYING, n. The act of foretelling or of preaching.

Women are free to do this (prophesy), but not in the church. The following passage is addressing how a church meeting is to be handled, yet when we get to the women part we say, "Well, it can't POSSIBLY mean THAT!!!" Guess what? I believe it means what it says. Have a Bible study. Say, "OK, everybody look up all the scriptures you can find about women in the church and read them aloud." Do it. It's like a date rapist saying, "Well, she was saying NO! NO! NO!, but what she REALLY meant was YES! YES! YES!"

4 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Dude, that's pretty clear. Hard to mess that one up, but boy have we ever. People hold up Deborah as an example when arguing for women preachers. First of all, this was one of the lowest periods of Jewish history, and second of all, she refuses to lead, and then relents saying that it will be to Barak's shame (Judges 4).

Maybe that is why pentecostals are having such a hard time right now. The men have abdicated responsibility to women for so long, and have allowed them to take on roles they were not meant to handle. In my opinion it is to our shame also.

I think when we had situations where there were no mean to lead, we would have been better off not proceeding than to go against the clear direction of God and then justify it away with arguments of men.

http://www.cbmw.org has some great teaching on the subject.

[DeWayneTN]

So do you believe it's a sin for a woman to cut her hair short or a man to have his long? Based on the criteria here, short of the explanation of a biblical commentary or cultural perspective, it would seem so, huh?

[Steve]

Yes, it sure would. I believe the proper question to ask is, What does the Bible say about this, and why?

biblical commentary or cultural perspective, it would seem so, huh?

Are you then saying that because it was "cultural" we shouldn't have charity, or that it is OK to have a big drunken feast at the Lord's table, or that we should have tons of people speaking in tongues at the same time with no intrepreter? Oh wait........

God help us when homosexuality is "culturally accepted". What 'cha gonna do then? You can stand behind the text of the Word, or you can go with "culture". There is a way that seems right to a man......

[DeWayneTN]

Sorry I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying our cultural influence, Steve. I'm talking about viewing a Scripture in light of the culture it was written in.