how come

[TW]

Ten years old, twenty years old, forty years old, eighty years old, it makes no difference. Great eye sight, poor eyesight, it makes no difference. The eyes only receive light waves, the brain is what "sees." If the Holy Spirit was active in Rough Rider's grandson, and from his account He was, then his grandson will see what the Holy Spirit wants him to.

It is the Holy spirit active in our brains that make "Visions" possible. By the same token, if an evil spirit is active in our brain, we will see what it wants us to (ghost and such).


TW

[Full Quiver]

Scripture please TW? I read of the Spirit's role in our lives and do not find that as His role.

[Gerald Creasy]

Ten years old, twenty years old, forty years old, eighty years old, it makes no difference. Great eye sight, poor eyesight, it makes no difference. The eyes only receive light waves, the brain is what "sees." If the Holy Spirit was active in Rough Rider's grandson, and from his account He was, then his grandson will see what the Holy Spirit wants him to.

It is the Holy spirit active in our brains that make "Visions" possible. By the same token, if an evil spirit is active in our brain, we will see what it wants us to (ghost and such).


TW

It may be possible for God to grant a vision of someone (I have no though to researched that), but, that having been said, the vision Peter had of a Sheet desending from heaven knit at four corners does not mean the spirit world is covered in sheets floating around waiting for us to discover them.

God may allow a person to see a vision of their grandfather as being pleased as a sign that the grandson is doing the right thing, but that is a long way from saying there's a spirit world people haunt.

I believe the Bible is clear: You did, after that the judgement. You're not haunting your children or childrens children.

[THE RAzEr]

Howabout:

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Then what of Moses on the mount of transfiguration? or Samuel with Saul and the witch of Endor?

What of it?

Do you think that the appearance of Moses at the transfiguration would then render Ecc 9:5 null and void?

Do you think that the Endor incident prooves demonic power has authority over the dead? And therby making Ecc 9:5 null and void because the dead would be sources of wisdom and advice KNOWING much???

I find it hard to understand why someone would use a special moment in the life of Christ -a supernatural GOD CENTERED- moment, to argue for the existence of ghosts, and spirits haunting the world.

I can understand why the Endor incident is used but it assumes That Samuel appeared BECAUSE OF the witch's power -when her reaction shows she was as shocked as anyone there. Because of that assumption the conclusion is drawn that ECC 9:5 dosen't mean what it says and theres a whole spirit world of ghost wandering the earth.

I have debated enough with Pentecostals to know my reading of the Endor incident will not be accepted: Jesus can me anything, or nothing in Pentecostalism but don't you dare question the power of their witches or occult beliefs.

On the contrary it does not make it null and void just maybe your interpretation of it. The verse says
Eccl 9:5

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
KJV

Are you implying that when we die we know nothing? that we also have no reward? certainly not. Yet the verse IMHO is saying the dead have no more reward on earth and they know nothing because they are not contributing to our world any longer. This is why it says "the memory of them is forgotten" meaning after time passes this world will forget all about you, our reward is in heaven.
Was Moses there? Yes! so people saw someone that was dead. Was Samuel seen by them? Yes, so people saw someone that was dead. However it happened it did occur so we can't say well this is null and void because you feel it occurred one way instead of another, it still occurred.

Now on the other side of this argument I am not really into hauntings and seeing ghost except I think there is a lot of demonic activities that go on that we can not explain. Admitting that they saw Moses and Samuel you would being saying that verse is null and void.

Just my thoughts and I am interested in all opinions because I get asked this a lot and my answer is people go to heaven or hell so when they saw them, I don’t have a real answer. Some say it was not Samuel I believe it was however the bible is clear it is against doing such things. Saul was not supposed to do that.......

You musst be on the right track. For the dead do know some things.

The rich man died, and in hell he lifted up his eys. He knew torment. He knew flames. He knew father Abraham. When he net him we do not know, but we do know it was not in life for his brothers had Moses and the Prophets (point being Moses and the Prophets were after Abrahm). He knew Lazarus. He knew he had brothers.
The Scriptures are not used to explain Jesus' words, but the scriptures must be inturpted in the light of Jesus, the Chief Cornerstone. So, the interpretation of the Scripture in ECC., must be in line with Jesus. I believe you are correct in placing it in the context it is written in.

Ray

[rough_rider]

God may allow a person to see a vision of their grandfather as being pleased as a sign that the grandson is doing the right thing, but that is a long way from saying there's a spirit world people haunt.

I was not trying to say my dad was haunting the youth camp
I am sure that my dad is with the Lord, sorry if my wording made it sound as if my grandson experienced a haunting of some kind...

[Linda]

God may allow a person to see a vision of their grandfather as being pleased as a sign that the grandson is doing the right thing, but that is a long way from saying there's a spirit world people haunt.

I was not trying to say my dad was haunting the youth camp
I am sure that my dad is with the Lord, sorry if my wording made it sound as if my grandson experienced a haunting of some kind...

For whatever reason, God may allow His angels to appear to us in the form of people we know. I was about to have surgery a few years ago and I saw my mom and dad (both are deceased) standing right there beside my bed. They both talked to me and told me I was going to be fine and they were there to watch over me. They told me they would not leave me alone. During that surgery, the doctor ran into some major complications, but God took care of me the whole time.

After sharing my experience with my cousin, she shared with me her experience about her dad. Her dad had passed away suddenly and she was really needing to know if he made it to heaven. She was driving to work one day and saw her father seating in the back seat of her car. He told her he was very happy and had made it to heaven.

[one love]

Ten years old, twenty years old, forty years old, eighty years old, it makes no difference. Great eye sight, poor eyesight, it makes no difference. The eyes only receive light waves, the brain is what "sees." If the Holy Spirit was active in Rough Rider's grandson, and from his account He was, then his grandson will see what the Holy Spirit wants him to.

It is the Holy spirit active in our brains that make "Visions" possible. By the same token, if an evil spirit is active in our brain, we will see what it wants us to (ghost and such).


TW

very good point. FQ did not the bible say that "our daughters would see visions and dreams" paraphrasing.......
what if this was something special the holy ghost wanted hime to see, Jesus saw Moses Gerald do you have to change your theology becasuse of that? Next you have not presente any bible to show why you feel this way that verse alone is not proving anything that you are saying.

[Gerald Creasy]

very good point. FQ did not the bible say that "our daughters would see visions and dreams" paraphrasing.......
what if this was something special the holy ghost wanted hime to see, Jesus saw Moses Gerald do you have to change your theology becasuse of that? Next you have not presente any bible to show why you feel this way that verse alone is not proving anything that you are saying.

Question #1 Why does the after-life of dead people come under the heading: theology???

Why would I have to adjust my "theology" when Hebrews says "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Is Hebrews wrong?

Question #2 Why does a spectacular event in the life of the most spectacular Jesus become an example for us normal people??????????????

God allowed Moses (representing the Law) and Elijah (representing The Prophets) to be seen as to testimony of the Nature of Christ.

In a theophany all things are possible.

You do not use a theophany to establish standards of everyday life.

[stevenson]

Gerald,
Why does being dead mean you can't be seen? I agree with the scripture your giving. But plenty of people have been seen after being dead. And some of those are listed in the Bible. The Prophet samuel was seen after his death, so wasn't Elijah and Moses.

[Full Quiver]

1Sa 28:15 ¶ And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

So it seems that Saul saw Samuel or at least spoke to him. It also appears that we could equally call up the dead. Is this witchcraft?


Yes young and old men are to dream and see visions. I am not so sure this is about seeing dead people though. The Holy Ghost can cause me to see lots of things if He so desires but it must be of some edification and pertain to godliness.

[one love]

Question #1 Why does the after-life of dead people come under the heading: theology???

I only mentioned this Brother because you had said

"Should I then reinterpret my Bible to include Marian theology???? "

So I was kind of trying to relate to your thought.

Why would I have to adjust my "theology" when Hebrews says "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Because you were insinuating that people cant be seen after death and gave scripture to prove it, if that was the case you would have to change your thinking (theology if you will) based in the encounter that Jesus had with Moses and Saul had with Samuel.

Is Hebrews wrong?

No not by any means but I am not seeing the connection here could you help by going into more detail. it is given to man to die once but we become spirit and they have been seen in the bible after death. This was my point. I am not claiming that people can die and haunt others and also walk around the earth with out going to heaven or hell, let me be clear about that. I think we agree there. But the verse in ECC does not mean we don’t know anything after we die, we surely are alive with Christ.

Question #2 Why does a spectacular event in the life of the most spectacular Jesus become an example for us normal people??????????????

well Jesus came in the flesh just as we were correct? all that he did he said we would do and greater works. Yet this spectacular event not only happened to Jesus but Saul who was not in the will of God.

God allowed Moses (representing the Law) and Elijah (representing The Prophets) to be seen as to testimony of the Nature of Christ.

I agree here but it still took place. Gerald don’t think that I am one that feels spirits are everywhere and things like that but I do feel that there are angels all around and also that demonic activities take place that could explain some haunting experiences. Maybe the Lord allows people to see family for a certain reason because of the trust they had for that person in the lord. Just a thought.
I think we are on the same page a little more then we think.

[one love]

1Sa 28:15 ¶ And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

So it seems that Saul saw Samuel or at least spoke to him. It also appears that we could equally call up the dead. Is this witchcraft?


Yes young and old men are to dream and see visions. I am not so sure this is about seeing dead people though. The Holy Ghost can cause me to see lots of things if He so desires but it must be of some edification and pertain to godliness.

Agreed on the visions but I was kind of touching that the you could get a vision of your father perhaps from the lord (supposing that your father was gone to be with the Lord)
Let's say that your Dad was a spiritual man that you really trusted and you were going through a very hard time and the Lord used him to assist you, has it ever happened to me NO, can it happen? Don’t know I have heard of many things like that. To be honest I don’t hold a lot of water in many dreams and supposed visions because many of them people say don’t make sense and if it is not biblical I think nothing of it, I am just looking at this from all sides. It is funny if one said something like this happened I would wonder if it was true and if it was God, I’m just really saying that God could do anything and I don’t see it being against his word.


FQ yes it is some form of witchcraft or the woman was some kind of wizard because she was scared and told Saul that the man Saul is killing all the wizards and he said it was ok and then she found out it was Saul. But seeking someone to bring up a spirit of the dead is against God and you may get an evil spirit who knows, but it is wrong. Psychics are usually what people go to today and it is wrong as well.