Adapting AG's Church Multiplication Network for the COGOP

[dawgs10]

We are called to be fishers of men, not to swap fish between aquariums.

I have to agree with Gary on this. Simply because in COGOP that is what happens alot between the close churches. They just swap fish.

Evangelism is a lost art in COGOP

KB

those south georgia churchs are all one pool anyway!!! if ya get my drift there kb

[KBevangelist]

We are called to be fishers of men, not to swap fish between aquariums.

I have to agree with Gary on this. Simply because in COGOP that is what happens alot between the close churches. They just swap fish.

Evangelism is a lost art in COGOP

KB

those south georgia churchs are all one pool anyway!!! if ya get my drift there kb

Not just South Georgia. I am NC now and it is like that here.

So it is everywhere from what I hear from contacts all across this country.

KB

[fezzik]

Instead of putting efforts and resources to start new churches, how about putting efforts and resources into renewing and revitalizing half-empty churches?

Amen to that.

[Pastor Gary]

And, that, I think is the biggest objection I have with the strategy, too. It is invariably the case as you say. Another dilemma is what kind of shepherd is it that prefers to hunt down new sheep without tending to the needs of the ones in the fold? If you're a start-up and your pastor is not a church-planter-at-heart by experience or calling, do you want to follow and be lead by someone who is going to abandon you when the next "big thing" somewhere else happens?? The commitment level, in my experience, has been demonstrably weak when guys are eager to launch a new deal instead of working the core from inside, doing the hard work of ferreting out the groundbreakers. Then, again, I'm not asked to make that commitment personally so I can't judge too harshly.

In ministry as in business there are entrepreneurs and managers, and the skill set is not the same for the two. Some people are amazing at visualizing, planning and organizing new ventures, but as soon as they are up and running, they are lousy at the day-to-day maintenance required; they either sell and move on to another new venture or they go out of business. I think that applies to ministers. The Apostle Paul seemed to be really good at going from place to place leaving organized churches behind, but I am not sure how effective he would have been as a two-decade long pastor.

[paul]

I don't disagree, but Bill Hybels has said (and, of course, every case is different), that it is generally easier to start a new church than to try and reform an existing one. How do you do the algebra to make the decision of one versus the other?

I agree. Also Peter Wagner of Fuller states "I begin this book with a categorical statement that will seem bold and brash to some at first sight, even though it has been well substantiated by research over the past two or three decades: The single most effective evangelistic methodology under heaven is planting new churches."

I would only add to this by stating, "planting effective churches."

As to the committment. This is where I believe most new plants fail. to be sent out to plant a church verse God calling you to an area to plant a church is a huge difference.

Having planted, sevral churches from "scratch" both in the cogop and outside and having birthed a mission organization has only been effective because we knew without a doubt that it was under the directon of the Holy Spirit.

[Pastor Gary]

I agree. Also Peter Wagner of Fuller states "I begin this book with a categorical statement that will seem bold and brash to some at first sight, even though it has been well substantiated by research over the past two or three decades: The single most effective evangelistic methodology under heaven is planting new churches."

With all due respect to Fuller and Wagner, I disagree emphatically, and cite the preponderance of evidence in the U.S. as evidence. The constant churn of latest-greatest new thing church plants have largely built their empires NOT on the evangelism of the unsaved, but upon the graves of small community churches they raided for musicians, teachers and volunteers.

I have seen it at work here and elsewhere. The big exciting church plant mega-congregation here in Honolulu features a sax player from a Pentecostal Holiness church, 3 vocalists from my local church, a keyboard player from an Assembly of God, several staffers from a Baptist church nearby, and a congregation that is 60%-70% refugees from smaller churches attracted by the flashy show-biz atmosphere and ability to come and sit and have little to no commitment.

[paul]

I agree. Also Peter Wagner of Fuller states "I begin this book with a categorical statement that will seem bold and brash to some at first sight, even though it has been well substantiated by research over the past two or three decades: The single most effective evangelistic methodology under heaven is planting new churches."

With all due respect to Fuller and Wagner, I disagree emphatically, and cite the preponderance of evidence in the U.S. as evidence. The constant churn of latest-greatest new thing church plants have largely built their empires NOT on the evangelism of the unsaved, but upon the graves of small community churches they raided for musicians, teachers and volunteers.

I have seen it at work here and elsewhere. The big exciting church plant mega-congregation here in Honolulu features a sax player from a Pentecostal Holiness church, 3 vocalists from my local church, a keyboard player from an Assembly of God, several staffers from a Baptist church nearby, and a congregation that is 60%-70% refugees from smaller churches attracted by the flashy show-biz atmosphere and ability to come and sit and have little to no commitment.

While I understand your point I think there is much more involved. We have a churc here in our area which runs in the several 1,000's. A good friend of mine was on a new church plant team as the praise and worship leader. The team set out for Palm Springs. the new church plant just celebrated its second anniversery. It is running just over 300. The people came from the core team of the mother church and the majority are new converts, unchurched and those who had dropped out of church years ago. Amazingly in a more retirement area a significant portion of growth have been from young families.

I believe it comes down to the mind set of why we do what we do.

[dawgs10]

I agree. Also Peter Wagner of Fuller states "I begin this book with a categorical statement that will seem bold and brash to some at first sight, even though it has been well substantiated by research over the past two or three decades: The single most effective evangelistic methodology under heaven is planting new churches."

With all due respect to Fuller and Wagner, I disagree emphatically, and cite the preponderance of evidence in the U.S. as evidence. The constant churn of latest-greatest new thing church plants have largely built their empires NOT on the evangelism of the unsaved, but upon the graves of small community churches they raided for musicians, teachers and volunteers.

I have seen it at work here and elsewhere. The big exciting church plant mega-congregation here in Honolulu features a sax player from a Pentecostal Holiness church, 3 vocalists from my local church, a keyboard player from an Assembly of God, several staffers from a Baptist church nearby, and a congregation that is 60%-70% refugees from smaller churches attracted by the flashy show-biz atmosphere and ability to come and sit and have little to no commitment.

While I understand your point I think there is much more involved. We have a churc here in our area which runs in the several 1,000's. A good friend of mine was on a new church plant team as the praise and worship leader. The team set out for Palm Springs. the new church plant just celebrated its second anniversery. It is running just over 300. The people came from the core team of the mother church and the majority are new converts, unchurched and those who had dropped out of church years ago. Amazingly in a more retirement area a significant portion of growth have been from young families.

I believe it comes down to the mind set of why we do what we do.

very seldom does that happen. pastor gary has the more realistic option. new church plants normaly leave people feeling used and abused. it does hurt smaller churchs and most of the time doesnt reach the unsaved. just transplants "church folk".

[EagerBeaver]

What if the COGOP were to shutter the "money pit" churches, or better yet, "paper" churches? A large part of financial losses in COGOP, from what I would estimate, are from churches who are not gaining in membership, exist only as a place to congregate on Sunday morning and Wednesday night, and can't keep their own lights on.

Maybe the church multiplication idea is a bit ahead of its time for the COGOP, and I agree with PG that we need to make better use of what resources we do have -- but honestly there are some principles in the CMN method that COGOP could start to adopt in the near future.

[PastorDaniel]

What if the COGOP were to shutter the "money pit" churches, or better yet, "paper" churches? A large part of financial losses in COGOP, from what I would estimate, are from churches who are not gaining in membership, exist only as a place to congregate on Sunday morning and Wednesday night, and can't keep their own lights on.

Maybe the church multiplication idea is a bit ahead of its time for the COGOP, and I agree with PG that we need to make better use of what resources we do have -- but honestly there are some principles in the CMN method that COGOP could start to adopt in the near future.

To my knowledge...there are no "money pit" churches in the COGOP.

That's because the COGOP as a GHQ doesn't send money out that I know of. Neither does the State HQ.

A local church has to stand on it's own two feet financially or it gets sold.

I only have a few financial supporters at my church. We actually rent the building out to a SDA church on Saturday to pay the bills.

The UP side to taking this church with only 5 active members over the age of 75 was that the building is paid for. We also have the advantage of being across the street from a Wal-Mart and the building is in Great shape!

We've had a lot to overcome. Our church had some serious problems about 10 years ago that was fairly publicized.

After being there a year we changed the name from COGOP to New Life Worship Center.

Now about 50 people call me pastor and 25 attend on a regular basis. I'm working hard on the others.

[EagerBeaver]

What if the COGOP were to shutter the "money pit" churches, or better yet, "paper" churches? A large part of financial losses in COGOP, from what I would estimate, are from churches who are not gaining in membership, exist only as a place to congregate on Sunday morning and Wednesday night, and can't keep their own lights on.

Maybe the church multiplication idea is a bit ahead of its time for the COGOP, and I agree with PG that we need to make better use of what resources we do have -- but honestly there are some principles in the CMN method that COGOP could start to adopt in the near future.

To my knowledge...there are no "money pit" churches in the COGOP.

That's because the COGOP as a GHQ doesn't send money out that I know of. Neither does the State HQ.

A local church has to stand on it's own two feet financially or it gets sold.

I only have a few financial supporters at my church. We actually rent the building out to a SDA church on Saturday to pay the bills.

The UP side to taking this church with only 5 active members over the age of 75 was that the building is paid for. We also have the advantage of being across the street from a Wal-Mart and the building is in Great shape!

We've had a lot to overcome. Our church had some serious problems about 10 years ago that was fairly publicized.

After being there a year we changed the name from COGOP to New Life Worship Center.

Now about 50 people call me pastor and 25 attend on a regular basis. I'm working hard on the others.

Yeah...I changed my term from money pit to "paper" church based on the very reasons you specified. I do agree the money and sustenance has to come locally.

Going from 5 to 50 is an incredible feat in and of itself, honestly. Sounds like your church is continuing to grow and may God bless it.

As for the churches that don't, why do they keep operating? In the hopes that someone will magically turn things around?

[DaJudge]

[

The constant churn of latest-greatest new thing church plants have largely built their empires NOT on the evangelism of the unsaved, but upon the graves of small community churches they raided for musicians, teachers and volunteers.

Totally agree. I see that so much in my area.

[Pastor Gary]

What if the COGOP were to shutter the "money pit" churches, or better yet, "paper" churches? A large part of financial losses in COGOP, from what I would estimate, are from churches who are not gaining in membership, exist only as a place to congregate on Sunday morning and Wednesday night, and can't keep their own lights on.

How, exactly, are small, financially strapped local churches any cause of financial loss for COGOP as an organization?

I am not following your logic.

Maybe the church multiplication idea is a bit ahead of its time for the COGOP, and I agree with PG that we need to make better use of what resources we do have -- but honestly there are some principles in the CMN method that COGOP could start to adopt in the near future.

Chris, with all due respect, you are a classic example of one of the problems COGOP needs to solve; you grew up in COGOP, acquired great journalism skills, video shooting and editing skills, audio skills, internet savvy... and all of that is now NOT being used by the COGOP, because you are self-described Assembly of God.

I am not sure what caused the switch... lack of a good local church nearby, or whatever, but the talent drain is killing us from within. You are exactly the kind of person we actively seek out and encourage at my church, and have the ability to take a mediocre, small local COGOP to another level of visibility and community outreach.

Here's a girl who showed up at our church two weeks ago, showed an interest in tech, and was running camera 3 this Sunday. No, I don't know her name yet.



If you showed up here, you'd be directing video in a week.

[AllenNope]

I agree with putting resources into churches we have rather than planting new ones. I STRONGLY agree closing the churches that have had no growth over the past 10 to 15 years.

We could be much more effective if we were united in one church in a town versus having 3 or more churches in a 20 mile radius. (huge pet peeve of mine). I'll stop there before I say things I will regret.

[Pastor Gary]

I agree with putting resources into churches we have rather than planting new ones. I STRONGLY agree closing the churches that have had no growth over the past 10 to 15 years.

We could be much more effective if we were united in one church in a town versus having 3 or more churches in a 20 mile radius. (huge pet peeve of mine). I'll stop there before I say things I will regret.

Brother, we are trying that right now here: http://www.reunionhawaii.com/