Assembly Expense

[RamboPreacher]

The church should pay the expenses of their "proxy" for sure and HQ might even need to subsidize such.

I don't agree. If funds are available, then maybe that could happen, but not as a must. the proxy representative is an official capacity as representative, and all (normal) business expenses are tax deductible - which should also be considered. that person shouldn't take both, however, that would be illegal.

[Mat]

removed

[RamboPreacher]

mat, sorry, I disagree on that logic, since I believe that the tithe is paid first, not last.

[Pastor Gary]

mat, sorry, I disagree on that logic, since I believe that the tithe is paid first, not last.

To clarify: If you were the owner of a small mom & pop store, you would tithe on gross sales receipts? Not net profits after expenses?

[RamboPreacher]

mat, sorry, I disagree on that logic, since I believe that the tithe is paid first, not last.

To clarify: If you were the owner of a small mom & pop store, you would tithe on gross sales receipts? Not net profits after expenses?

I had a sole proprietorship/business, and that apples and rocks comparison, sorry. However, in my business as the overhead was always minimal, and I was a service provider, yes, in fact, I did pay tithe on gross sales receipts.

with that said, and back to my comment, I can't see how, and don't believe that pastoring a church and owning a retail business is the same thing at all, financially.

the pastor is an employee of the church (COGOP finances). they don't run a church-business with sales/product overhead. but then, that is my personal conviction. IF I were a pastor, I would pay tithe on any income/increase that came in, first. and deduct any appropriate expenses from taxes. OR, if available, would use those receipts for church reimbursement (still after the tithe).

[Pastor Gary]

mat, sorry, I disagree on that logic, since I believe that the tithe is paid first, not last.

To clarify: If you were the owner of a small mom & pop store, you would tithe on gross sales receipts? Not net profits after expenses?

I had a sole proprietorship/business, and that apples and rocks comparison, sorry. However, in my business as the overhead was always minimal, and I was a service provider, yes, in fact, I did pay tithe on gross sales receipts.

with that said, and back to my comment, I can't see how, and don't believe that pastoring a church and owning a retail business is the same thing at all, financially.

the pastor is an employee of the church (COGOP finances). they don't run a church-business with sales/product overhead. but then, that is my personal conviction. IF I were a pastor, I would pay tithe on any income/increase that came in, first. and deduct any appropriate expenses from taxes. OR, if available, would use those receipts for church reimbursement (still after the tithe).

For the sake of discussion, let me toss out some things:
• A pastor feels it important to always be accessible to his members at all times, so he contracts for a huge block of cellular minutes... far more than he would have for normal, casual, family use. Business expense? Cost-of-doing-business overhead?

• A personal one: I live in Hawaii. We don't wear suits, ever. I perform weddings and funerals in casual clothing. At the Assembly, I am told that I must wear suits to certain events and meetings. I am, therefore, compelled to purchase, essentially, a set of "uniforms" that are of absolutely zero use to me outside of this requirement. It is, in my view, a waste of money, funds I would never have chosen to spend this way, and an absolutely business overhead expense, little different from a business entrepreneur who must comply with OSHA regulations providing mandated safety gear.

I contend that Pastors are NOT in the classic sense employees of COGOP, but are more akin to self-employed contract workers.

[Mat]

removed

[RamboPreacher]

mat, sorry, I disagree on that logic, since I believe that the tithe is paid first, not last.

To clarify: If you were the owner of a small mom & pop store, you would tithe on gross sales receipts? Not net profits after expenses?

I had a sole proprietorship/business, and that apples and rocks comparison, sorry. However, in my business as the overhead was always minimal, and I was a service provider, yes, in fact, I did pay tithe on gross sales receipts.

with that said, and back to my comment, I can't see how, and don't believe that pastoring a church and owning a retail business is the same thing at all, financially.

the pastor is an employee of the church (COGOP finances). they don't run a church-business with sales/product overhead. but then, that is my personal conviction. IF I were a pastor, I would pay tithe on any income/increase that came in, first. and deduct any appropriate expenses from taxes. OR, if available, would use those receipts for church reimbursement (still after the tithe).

For the sake of discussion, let me toss out some things:
• A pastor feels it important to always be accessible to his members at all times, so he contracts for a huge block of cellular minutes... far more than he would have for normal, casual, family use. Business expense? Cost-of-doing-business overhead?

this is a tax write off, or business expense - may be overhead, but it really isn't otherwise required. either way, the tithe from his paycheck from the church would be paid first (in my conviction).

• A personal one: I live in Hawaii. We don't wear suits, ever. I perform weddings and funerals in casual clothing. At the Assembly, I am told that I must wear suits to certain events and meetings. I am, therefore, compelled to purchase, essentially, a set of "uniforms" that are of absolutely zero use to me outside of this requirement. It is, in my view, a waste of money, funds I would never have chosen to spend this way, and an absolutely business overhead expense, little different from a business entrepreneur who must comply with OSHA regulations providing mandated safety gear.

I agree completely - and is either a tax deduction, or an expense if there is funding and F/S agreement. Still not affecting the paying of the tithe from what the church pays the pastor.

I contend that Pastors are NOT in the classic sense employees of COGOP, but are more akin to self-employed contract workers.

agreed with the paradigm, but since the pastor gets a W2, and it is actually incorrect (not to mention, illegal, as I understand) to do the 1099. but still apples and rocks to compare a pastor to a retail sales business owner. it may be more like a service provider, though.

a point of clarification is that I am talking about expenses that are reimbursed are separate from the pastors "salary", and should be completely separate, in my opinion, and not counted as part of that income, as the expenses potentially change from day to day and week to week, month to month and year to year.

This MAY be addressed similarly to the housing allotment, in that the pastor still gets a certain "salary" (I really dislike saying it like that, since hopefully being a pastor is a calling, and not a "job"), but the reported amount in taxes is minus that allotment.

With that said, it is my opinion, and conviction that I would pay the tithe first, and on the amount the church "pays" them, not the amount that is "reported" to the IRS as "income" (W2, box 1), since it is that full amount that is otherwise listed (including the allotment that is noted on the W2, box 14).

[Pastor Bill]

There is a difference in "Expenses" and "Salary" the problem is (which has caused many to question things that most churches don't really pay expenses, so pastors pay them themselves out of their Salary, then count a smaller salary for tithing and reporting purposes.

At work, I am paid for the hours I work, should I have expenses, those are reimbursed and have NOTHING to do with my pay. Pastoral expenses are the same way if your church is truly paying expenses, but if the church is not, then either you can count them on taxes as "unreimbursed expenses" or you can lower your salary and count part of the money you are getting as an expense account. If you do this, I think it must be OK'd in a business meeting, and you must provide receipts for all expenses.

[dolfan]

A pastor who is considered self-employed is like any other small business owner. You are working as a sole proprietor. That means that everything that you do that has a business purpose (i.e., a bona fide purpose as part of your work as pastor) is a deductible business expense IF you have the correct documentation of that expense.

Pastors are like realtors in this way. Most of your performance related expenses are vehicle related. If you drive your car to any destination other than from your home to your regular office, and you have a legitimate business purpose or activity while there, you may deduct that mileage (if you use the mileage method of deductions). I can elaborate on that if you like, but won't here. Just know that almost anything you do, as long as it is business (and your business is pastoring), is probably deductible --- legitimately and not playing games --- but there are certain documentation rules that you must meet or you're in danger of penalties, losing deductions, etc. if audited.

Another example is entertainment deductions. Those are 50% deductible. Anytime you sit down in a restaurant to eat with members or visitors, even if you go Dutch, as long as there is a legitimate business discussion, you can deduct the cost of that meal. Sometimes, you can apply that to the wife and kids, depending on circumstances. Again, ask if interested in more info. I'll share that here. Certain documentation rules apply here as well.

One thing I'd encourage every pastor to do is look hard at the way you deduct vehicle expenses. Right now, the average small vehicle costs about 75 cents per mile to drive 10,000 business miles in a year. Fewer business miles than that are even more expensive per mile. Effective July 1, the IRS mileage rate is 58.5 cents per mile. If you drive 10K biz miles, you get a deduction of $5,850, but it cost your at least $7,500 to drive it. You can, with easy documentation, deduct the whole $7,500 under the actual expense method. I can elaborate on that, if you like.

[Dr. Ron]

Oh but PG, you are an employee of COGOP since you enacted the "heirarchiael statement" two years ago. All ministers are considered employees of the "mother church " in Cleveland.....so says McKinley.....or I grossly misunderstood him.( maybe this will draw him out)...lol

However, if they have required you to wear a "uniform" they are liable to give you "chits" for that or allow you to deduct it from your expenses. It is ludicrious to expect you to do that.....whoever in the name of heaven required to you do that is ...........well ....it's just dumb. None of the overseers of that world ever wore suits to any function as a mandate.

Anyway, you guys will figure it out and make a IA ruling that will be debated for years to come...........

[Pastor Bill]

Actually I am pretty sure the suits would be considered business expense even if you wore them every Sunday.

[dolfan]

See "Tax Guide for Churches and Religious Organizations"
www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

"A church should report compensation paid to a minister on Form W-2, Wage and Tax Statement, if the minister is an employee, or on IRS Form 1099-MISC, Miscellaneous Income, if the minister is an independent contractor." Id. at p. 14.

It can cut either direction. It is fact sensitive, and each local church and pastor must weigh their own facts to make the correct determination. Sometimes, it is a close call and not easy to judge which one you are. Most times, however, because pastors are under no direct supervision on HOW to do their jobs or when to perform their duties, they are independent contractors UNLESS an employment agreement is in place that treats them as employees.

[Rob]

mat, sorry, I disagree on that logic, since I believe that the tithe is paid first, not last.

Sounds like you have attended one to many Jan Couch conference's.

[RamboPreacher]

mat, sorry, I disagree on that logic, since I believe that the tithe is paid first, not last.

Sounds like you have attended one to many Jan Couch conference's.

actually, this is what I believe and personal conviction for a very long time, well before my COGOP membership. I was actually pleasantly surprised when I heard her speak on the subject and was what I had already applied in my life for years.