The "Critical Spirit" of COGOP

[TW]

Every, I'll say it again, EVERY organization (for the sake of this discussion read as; church, ministry, denomination) needs to be critiqued on an ongoing basis. To blindly support "leadership" is folly. Policies, programs and initiatives must stand or fall on their own merit, not because they were set in place by "leadership." Over the long haul, this ongoing critique (criticism) will strengthen the organization, not weaken it. As heat must be applied when purifying gold in order to separate the dross from the gold, the Church must be subjected to the heat of critique in order to separate the "religious dross."


Your brother in Christ,
TW

[KBevangelist]

Good post and welcome.

However, I don't think it is so much of a critical spirit (some people do have that though) as it is more of we have our right to express our opinion.

Though I am not terribly old, I remember a time when pastors, ministers and churches would not dare question or express concerns against SO, IO or any other leadership. I am sure some did it with a critical spirit, however not everyone. It was almost like "i am in this position and you do what I say or else," that attitude has destroyed alot of people and ministries. Those people who did got moved, booted out, told off and others things from the powers that be.

To me it is okay to express our opinions and critques of SO and IO. We live in a free society where we can express our thoughts, concerns and questions. SO, IO and everyone else may not like it, but it is life now.

IO has given the local church's more power, so to speak, and they will never get it back (though I think some are trying too), and those churches will not roll over and play dead now.

KB

[TC]

I will never understand why someone would be part of a Church that they disagree with, maybe on one issue but when you have several issues you disagree with then go where you feel you need to be.

To me the worst has to be a pastor in one organization and be in such disagreement with that organization (no matter what organization it is) I know Pastors in the COGOP that there because they "feel lead" of God to pastor and no other organization will give them a Lic or a Church. They are good men and friends of mine (not in KY) I know one that is close to 40 never had a public job and has no other skills than being a Pastor. He tried for years to tell me he was trying to change things from within. When his brother called him on it he admitted that part of the reason he stays is because he has connections in the COGOP.

I love this guy as a brother, but I would respect him more as a pastor if he would follow what he says his heart is leading him to. If he was to leave start his own Church or get a public job. I have family from "The Church of God" to COG, AOG, UPC, COGOP, Baptist and even Catholic. It does not matter what is on the door but what is in their heart.

I don't have to agree with everything everyone else thinks that does not make them or me, more or less a Christian than anyone else. But a Christian will find common ground and that common ground is agreeing that is all comes down to a man dying on a cross

[Mat]

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[rjjunior]

All this "criticism" and "complaining" we are discussing, or in my case doing, is part of a birthing stage in which a new and more dynamic movement will emerge. You know first the mother screams and then the new baby screams, but with the new life the screams are forgotten. What I do want for the COGOP is that we not be a poor imitation of COG, or AG, or PHC, whatever the latest popular seminar speaker is. We do not need structure like everybody else, nor do we need leaders like everybody else. I want to be led in a movement by God called ministers who have built great works for God no matter where they are from or what color their skin. If the COGOP is in danger of making a mistake, it is the error of trying to be like everybody else. It was bad for Israel when they wanted a king like the other nations and it is bad for us, if we still desire to be a movement. Maybe its our “peculiar” history or our silly name, maybe its our poor background or backward ways, but we struggle with identity and find ourselves trying to please the wrong people. Just my thoughts on criticism, but then I guess I’m being critical again.

Mat

Actually, Mat, this was the least critical pontification you've submitted... Well spoken.

[Brian]

We do not need structure like everybody else, nor do we need leaders like everybody else.

Sorry to hijack the thread, (it's going so well) but this kinda jumped out at me.

Hey Mat, I don't mean to critique you but does the COGOP need to be different just for the sake of being different? I'm not saying to mimic COG, AOG, TCOG, or anyone for that matter. But do we have to try and set ourselves against the likeness of another church? There IS only One Church. And if we happen to resemble another group of believers then so be it. Are we not still the Body? One group of poeple united by the blood of Christ?

If it truly doesn't matter the name above the door then why get twisted if we resemble another brother??

Just my thoughts.....no offense Mat!

[Mat]

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[PastorDaniel]

All this "criticism" and "complaining" we are discussing, or in my case doing, is part of a birthing stage in which a new and more dynamic movement will emerge. You know first the mother screams and then the new baby screams, but with the new life the screams are forgotten. What I do want for the COGOP is that we not be a poor imitation of COG, or AG, or PHC, whatever the latest popular seminar speaker is. We do not need structure like everybody else, nor do we need leaders like everybody else. I want to be led in a movement by God called ministers who have built great works for God no matter where they are from or what color their skin. If the COGOP is in danger of making a mistake, it is the error of trying to be like everybody else. It was bad for Israel when they wanted a king like the other nations and it is bad for us, if we still desire to be a movement. Maybe its our “peculiar” history or our silly name, maybe its our poor background or backward ways, but we struggle with identity and find ourselves trying to please the wrong people. Just my thoughts on criticism, but then I guess I’m being critical again.

Mat

AMEN and AMEN....Let the Church Arise and Shine!!

Sorry, couldn't help that!

Great post though and I do agree!

[Dr. Ron]

Let the Bahama Brass Band now strike up a good rendition of

When We All Get to Heaven!!!!! Get those white hankies out!!!!

[Mat]

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[THE RAzEr]

Your heart seems to be in the right place. i have pondered days about your post.

here is something I wish you to consider.

You said there are two sides to every story. I agree. You chose to call SO's. When you do ask them if they are still in their position and grtting a check in the mail. If they are, call some of our ex- Pastors who worked to build those states for years to see how they and their families are fairing or did fair. It is a long, long list. Be ready to hear the same story over and over. Yes there are two sides to every story, and the familiarity is uncanny!


You speak about something which it seems to me you have second hand knowledge. Some of us out here were not that fortunate.

May God bless you.

Bishop Ray Ammons, COGOP

[Dr. Ron]

Mat,
I have their album..if I miss them......(which I have not) I would just play the album and let it go.

Actually, I haven't missed any of it. It was always work to me.

As an evangelist, I was in the booth booking revivals, and then at night singing at afterglows (which the World Challenge Singers, Jerry Goins, and Zion's Children started) and generally missing everything anyway,......

Then as SO, it was a lot of work also.

So, no, I really don't miss it.

[panhandler]

Mat,
I have their album..if I miss them......(which I have not) I would just play the album and let it go.

Actually, I haven't missed any of it. It was always work to me.

As an evangelist, I was in the booth booking revivals, and then at night singing at afterglows (which the World Challenge Singers, Jerry Goins, and Zion's Children started) and generally missing everything anyway,......

Then as SO, it was a lot of work also.

So, no, I really don't miss it.

Ahh, the afterglows at the old Bradley Gym. Those were the days. Did a few of them myself at Conn center, Keith street church, etc.

[soulsearcher]

Well, I for one DO miss the Bahama Brass Band playing like they used to during the Assemblies. I know they still play (I attend every Assembly), in "mini-concerts," but I miss their constant presence in the Assembly. They used to be called on the spur of the moment, and would always revive and move the crowd to worship and celebrate - like a breath of fresh air or a cool drink of water.

And, yes, I LOVED the marches and was sad to see them discontinued - especially the countries' marches whose sweet and sincere testimonies and songs moved me to tears.
Some of the best music of the Assembly happened during the marches - especially Michigan, Pennsylvania, Florida and New York!

The VLB march into the auditorium was thrilling, and a definite highlight of the Assembly - all to the rhythm of the Bahama Brass Band!

That band has a sound like no other, and I applaud their history and heritage. To me, they were THE SOUND of the Assembly. Each time I hear them, it stills sounds like "home."

[Mike Vande]

Having been a poster on this and the predecessors of this board, I have seen quite a bit of what makes up the COGOP, and from the position of one who has never set foot inside a COGOP church house even once in my entire life. I had only heard vague references to it's existence without any understanding of it's teachings, history, or members prior to participating here. But I have been a participant with members of the COGOP here for over ten years, and I believe I can speak with some authority on this topic.
Therefore, I can honestly say that I find no greater amount of critical spirit in the COGOP than I have in any other denomination of the Church at large, and I have been around a number of them in my life. They have their problems, to be sure, as do all the denominations I have encountered. But I have seen what I can only term a magnificent and fruitful effort to bring the COGOP out of archaic thoguht & practice and self-imposed separation from the Body of Christ at large, and into a position of relevance to the culture inside and outside that Body. They have much more going for them than against them in the person, pastoral and bishopric leadership of men like Pastor Gary, who, from what I can tell, is not a rarity among the ministers of his organization.
Look for a half-full glass, brother, look for the things the COGOP is doing right, and you'll see much more of value than you appear to now. May God continue to bless the efforts of the COGOP to reach the people around them for Jesus, even those among their own ranks.