A Question About Funding in the COGOP

[Pastorbps]

Do the churches in nations currently send 10% of their tithe to their national offices, the General Presbyter for their area, or the IO? Do the national offices send 10% to the Area Presbyter or the IO? Does the IO operate off the tithe of the U.S. states or do they have a finance stream from other nations (besides Missions Offerings)?

[Mat]

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[Blended]

MAT the answer in the minutes of the assembly does not really reveal the fact that those churches are not taught to tithe or expected to as are US churches.

Think about the fact that African churches are suppose to have 500,000 members if they (poor as they are) were able to give 1 US dollar a year well you get the Idea

our system is predicated on the myth that the well of the US will expand and continue till the end guess what I hear the sound of wailing and gnashing of teeth for the drought has been on for a while and all the sources are drying up.

Beware HQ that you don't further alienate those who strive to send your monthly tax to support this bankrupt system. The Pastors

[Mat]

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[Blended]

Sadly the simple fact is we are already feeling the death throes once again we have acted without regard to the end result and consequences. The powers that be (the IP's are my Guess) have just about sealed the coup.(circa 1923) The proxy vote gives them an overwhelming voting block so that even if all the churches in the US were to stand against these insane reports and policy issues, they still will get what they want. They have stripped the Office of GO of almost all the power it once had giving them the final say over every appointment and decision.

What will happen will be what has happened the churches in the US will vote with their feet and pocket books and we will be close to bankrupt within the next two years and defunct in 5.

My Opinion but I see how little influence RH has had on actual operations and how much the Old Guard is now pushing.

[Mat]

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[germanshepherd]

MAT you said

if the "fix is in" returning pastors may find missionaries outside the COGOP to promote.

My question to you is "Why would you cut-off (so to speak) some poor missionary because of your disagreement with something that may have taken place thousands of miles away from them and over which they had no control?"

As a former missionary with the intentions of returning to the mission field, I would hate to know that the reason a church stopped supporting me as a missionary was because of something that happened at the International Assembly. I would hope that they were supporting the work based on what God had directed them to do and what was being accomplished because of the cooperation together.

[Mat]

Sorry!

[scooter]

I love you guys!

[free]

MAT wrote:

If an Overseer comes as representitive of churches in his area, they must have first selected him at the local church and secondly made an expression on the various reports that are recorded on the forms we much submit when we register at the Assembly. The same is true of the IPs. They can not, according to the instructions simply take the proxy duties on themselves and make their own expressions for the local churches they may represent.

I know of several pastors in more than one state who told the overseer to represent the local church and to vote how they felt was best...Now whether or not the overseer went to each church and discussed their votes is a different issue. I know of one case in particular that this did not happen.

It's a flawed system but I have no solution unless you only allow Ordained Bishops to vote on the business mattes.

[EagerBeaver]

Redacted by request.

[paul]

We are not given a choice. The scriptures tells us plainly we are to go into all the world.. It is called the Great Commission. You cannot get around that in any manner that you might try.

Second: we have been told in scriptures that to whom much has been given , much is also required.

Thirdly: it is not about us and them it is about WE. you cannot seperate the body of Christ in groups of those outside the US and those inside the US. That is in no way scriptural and is contrary to the word, and the understanding of one body.

As I have mentioned before the problem is that to many view missions as a burden and not an opportunity. That is the fault of the leadership at your IO.

Fourthly: If it is not based on meaningful relationship between the pastor and the missionary, escecially if that missionary is a notional, it will not be effective no matter how much money you send. Without relationship they will smile at yuou while taking your money and when you leave they will do what they think necessary.

Fifth: their is a vast misunderstanding of what support really means. We think of support as dollars leaving our pocket and going into the pocket of another. We do not view it as building God's kingdom. We fail to realize that if we build His kingdom Christ made us a promise that He would build the church.

So where is the problem. Not in giving to missions, but in a complete lack of understanding about how funds are distributed, and how they are used to provide the proper tools that others, they themself can build the kingdom and reach their nation for Christ.

Having pastored here in the states many many years and planting churches from scratch..I am more than aware of finances...I paid the church payment, I bought the toliet paper and light bulbs. If I hadn't paid tithes off my secular job there would not have been any tithes.

Now I am faced with raising hundred's of thousands of dollars yearly to build God's kingdom around the world. so I have a better picture than many. I have no denomination supporting me. We starteed from scratch 12 years ago.

The sooner we understand about placing tools in the hands of other we can and will see much more accomplished and others becoming self sufficient enough to carry their own weight.

I know there is much resistance to this... I personally have offered real tangible tools to help build buildings and train leaders to other organization including cogop. never to hear from them.. Why? I quess they all know better approaches and after all I am just an outsider.

[Mat]

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[germanshepherd]

Paul...Thank you for articulating this so well. I agree with you on your valid points and our focus. It is what we are commissioned to do.

[Blended]

The reality is that what it means to support missionaries on the field (ie what Paul does) and what the cogop does are two different things.

it is not about us or them it is about accountability and return for investment

funds going to headquarters from churches that are struggling to exist while HQ continues to practice totalitarian tactics to control pastors and churches using unwise measures, frivolous and questionable spending etc.

When harvest partner support goes up for a region I believe the support from the GHQ goes down to balance the expenditures from Them.

Nations who were birthed on the prayer, sweat and blood of generations past should at some point become self sufficient and send missionaries themselves

that is not the case in the COGOP all of our foreign nation churches are on welfare and many are receiving from more than just the cogop. supporting a regional presbyter or national office does not equate to supporting missions