Israel, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Turkey & Azerbaijan have been in negotiations for a gas pipeline through Turkey, one terminal for which is in Ashekelon, Israel for shipment out of the Red Sea port of Eilat.
Israeli companies own large interests in Caspian Sea oil; the pipelines do not flow into Russia's pipeline. Russia wants it to. Israel offered Russia a stake in the project, but Russia refused.
Georgia's president Saakashvili has been a mover in this project. Russia's invasion is to cripple Saakashvili, get a new president less inclined to pipe Israel's oil through Turkey instead of Russia. If Georgia surrenders with an agreement to do just that, Russia could probably care less about South Ossetia and Abkhazia. All pretext for oil control.
Which brings me to two questions:
1. If oil is going to go down in value, really, why is Russia going to war for a pipeline?
2. Is this really a chess move regarding Iran?? Is Russia sending Israel a signal of what could happen if it attacks Iran?
Israel is the real Russian target?
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dolfan
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Israel is the real Russian target?
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
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dolfan
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I feel very bad for the Georgians, who've fought with us in Iraq, now asking for our help and getting a deafening silence. What is going on here?!? What more is there to this picture that would justify this? I really want to know.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
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pastorables
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dolfan wrote:I feel very bad for the Georgians, who've fought with us in Iraq, now asking for our help and getting a deafening silence. What is going on here?!? What more is there to this picture that would justify this? I really want to know.
Wouldn't you think to engage Russia would be inviting a war of world proportions, unlike engaging Iraq or Iran?
pa
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Full Quiver
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pastorables wrote:Full Quiver wrote:What ever happened to ALLIES?
They broke up years ago. Bob Carlisle went on to have a very successful career, including Butterfly Kisses.
(JK)
People have gone to Hell for better jokes that that, PA.
Why is it that bad decisions seem to make to most interesting testimonies?
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dolfan
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They've sent 2,000 soldiers to Iraq. In five years, as of May, 2008, only 2 of them had been killed. They've got a standing regular army of only 22,000. That's almost 10% of their whole military. Their contribution, proportionally, is as much as our own and its our war! We have about 2.7 million in active duty and reserve. We have about 10% of the number of our active duty folks over there --- and many, many of those are reservists. The toll for Georgia in pure human numbers is greater. Their sacrifice for us has been honorable. Our help for them now is to send Sarkozy to Moscow to beg for Putin to call off the dogs?? I don't get it. I don't get it at all.
I'll hand it to Russia. They know when to start a fight. Georgians were being slaughtered in their homes this weekend while President Bush enjoyed the opening ceremonies of the Olympics sitting next to Vladimir Putin. That's a picture I won't soon forget.
Fear of war with Russia is not good enough to explain our response. We've made, I fear, an enemy out of a real friend. We've also conceded a major territorial position to a reawakening Russian bear. This ain't good, folks. Not at all.
I'll hand it to Russia. They know when to start a fight. Georgians were being slaughtered in their homes this weekend while President Bush enjoyed the opening ceremonies of the Olympics sitting next to Vladimir Putin. That's a picture I won't soon forget.
Fear of war with Russia is not good enough to explain our response. We've made, I fear, an enemy out of a real friend. We've also conceded a major territorial position to a reawakening Russian bear. This ain't good, folks. Not at all.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
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forestwalker
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It's about Kosovo, not Israel.
For the truth that lies at the heart of theology is not something there to be discovered, but something, or rather someone, to whom we must surrender. The mystery of faith is not ultimately something that invites our questioning, but something that questions us.
Andrew Louth, Discerning the Mystery
Andrew Louth, Discerning the Mystery
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dolfan
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See, I think that's a pretext. Not that I'm right that it is "about Israel", because odds are even or worse on that, probably, but that's my theory. I think that it is about Iran.
The UN Secretary-General wants to hand over international control within Kosovo to the EU and Kosovo itself. Russia said two weeks ago that he doesn't have the authority, that only the Sec. Council can approve that. Whatever. The fact is Russia has been threatening to use the whole Kosovo question to justify an invasion of Georgia for more than 2 years and hasn't done squat until now. Why now?
There are key differences here. The UN itself approved the Kosovo independence plan over Russia's objections. In South Ossetia and Abkhazia, there's been no secession from Georgia, no international recognition of their rights apart from Georgia, no international recognition that they are culturally, geographically or politically Russian as opposed to Georgian, no recognition of those provinces' rights as sovereigns to make a decision to federate with Russia. All of that is wholly lacking here. If this is "payback", then Kosovo is a pretext and not a precedent.
If the timing of this is not about oil and Iran, then it is simply about raw power and Russia used the cover of the Olympics and Bush's presence there. It was a sneaky sucker punch. In my opinion, we should advocate hard now for Georgia's membership in NATO, and we need to form two naval blockades --- one of Cuba and one off the Sea of Marmara off the coast of Turkey OR off the Meditteranean coast of Israel. If Russia wants to use Georgia to inch closer to Iran's border with Turkey, then we need to have our foot right next to theirs.
The UN Secretary-General wants to hand over international control within Kosovo to the EU and Kosovo itself. Russia said two weeks ago that he doesn't have the authority, that only the Sec. Council can approve that. Whatever. The fact is Russia has been threatening to use the whole Kosovo question to justify an invasion of Georgia for more than 2 years and hasn't done squat until now. Why now?
There are key differences here. The UN itself approved the Kosovo independence plan over Russia's objections. In South Ossetia and Abkhazia, there's been no secession from Georgia, no international recognition of their rights apart from Georgia, no international recognition that they are culturally, geographically or politically Russian as opposed to Georgian, no recognition of those provinces' rights as sovereigns to make a decision to federate with Russia. All of that is wholly lacking here. If this is "payback", then Kosovo is a pretext and not a precedent.
If the timing of this is not about oil and Iran, then it is simply about raw power and Russia used the cover of the Olympics and Bush's presence there. It was a sneaky sucker punch. In my opinion, we should advocate hard now for Georgia's membership in NATO, and we need to form two naval blockades --- one of Cuba and one off the Sea of Marmara off the coast of Turkey OR off the Meditteranean coast of Israel. If Russia wants to use Georgia to inch closer to Iran's border with Turkey, then we need to have our foot right next to theirs.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
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pastorables
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MacUser wrote:I've been watching this also escalate.
Bush warns Russia. Things are definitely escalating quickly. I wonder what part the UN will play in trying to police all of this or will they let the super powers face off?!
On another note, doesn't the abiding president stay in office if our nation is at war?
pa
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dolfan
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No, the new president assumes office.
Bush didn't warn Russia so much as he complained to them. Without a statement of consequence, it is not a warning. The fact is that we didn't see this coming, or we didn't see it coming so swiftly and we didn't see it coming now. Brilliant move by Putin. Brutal, boorish, bestial even, but brilliant nonetheless.
We are equal to this. We can (won't, but can) get Russia out of Georgia and out of the position of trying to control the oil and gas flow to Turkey.
Bush didn't warn Russia so much as he complained to them. Without a statement of consequence, it is not a warning. The fact is that we didn't see this coming, or we didn't see it coming so swiftly and we didn't see it coming now. Brilliant move by Putin. Brutal, boorish, bestial even, but brilliant nonetheless.
We are equal to this. We can (won't, but can) get Russia out of Georgia and out of the position of trying to control the oil and gas flow to Turkey.
Last edited by dolfan on August 11th, 2008, 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gerald Creasy
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pastorables
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dolfan wrote:No, the new president assumes office.
Tim,
I've heard all my life that a sitting president cannot be removed during wartime. Is this something that has changed over the years?
pa
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose."Jim Elliot - Missionary Martyr
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