Explanations?

[Pastor Bill]

I don't think we've made it that they are not accountable to the assembly, but realistically do you really think that all decisions can/should be made from the assembly floor?

If so, why have leaders at all? I know I am fairly new to this organization, but I've seen some minor recommendations take up WAY too much time on the assembly floor, and to make all these decisions in that manner would require a month long IA, and we'd still get nothing done.

[Pastor Bill]

OK, still didn't get a reply to my question about how many listened to Tuesday's GO address.

He DID explain these things, and he DID give the reasonings why. You may feel it was not detailed enough, or you may just plain disagree with the decisions, but there was explanation, and it was communicated that there were changes and cutting back in order to put that money into areas that were deemed more important, like reaching the harvest, developing and strengthening the broader base of leadership outside of the IO, and to put money that was going into IO back out into the field.

People on this board have been asking for these things for years, I made a comment a couple months ago that the biggest issue with doing it was it would require cutting some things and as soon as they do that people will complain. I guess I was right, because that is exactly what is happening.

This is a good direction for the church, Brother Howard explained the reasoning behind it and his vision moving forward, and either people didn't listen to that, or just don't get it.

[dawgs10]

I don't think we've made it that they are not accountable to the assembly, but realistically do you really think that all decisions can/should be made from the assembly floor?

If so, why have leaders at all? I know I am fairly new to this organization, but I've seen some minor recommendations take up WAY too much time on the assembly floor, and to make all these decisions in that manner would require a month long IA, and we'd still get nothing done.

doing away with vos was not a minor decision. it is a major ministry that has been with the church for over 50 years. and no, we should not put every minor decision on the assembly floor. i agree with you. elimanating postions in such a large ministry for the public face of this church is very important. that should have went out in a questionair, information packet or on line as a question to us, not an annoucement.

[dawgs10]

OK, still didn't get a reply to my question about how many listened to Tuesday's GO address.

He DID explain these things, and he DID give the reasonings why. You may feel it was not detailed enough, or you may just plain disagree with the decisions, but there was explanation, and it was communicated that there were changes and cutting back in order to put that money into areas that were deemed more important, like reaching the harvest, developing and strengthening the broader base of leadership outside of the IO, and to put money that was going into IO back out into the field.

People on this board have been asking for these things for years, I made a comment a couple months ago that the biggest issue with doing it was it would require cutting some things and as soon as they do that people will complain. I guess I was right, because that is exactly what is happening.

This is a good direction for the church, Brother Howard explained the reasoning behind it and his vision moving forward, and either people didn't listen to that, or just don't get it.

i do get it. more people watch vos and are touched by the ministry of billy wilson year in and year out than any other ministry in this church. we dont have the number of members in africa that comes close to the tv audience that is reached by a tv ministry. sure, build up local leaders and churchs. find finance from a ministry that is not reaching the world. find money that is being used in areas that does not reach the masses. then allow the local ministry to help in the growing process. it dont cost much money for a bible study.

[DeWayneTN]

My first thought (and I could be mistaken - has happened before) is that some decisions have been made from the results of the IO surveys that were sent out last year. If that is the case, the argument could certainly be made that the church leadership was consulted on changes before they happened. If any leaders want to share what the surveys entailed, that would probably be helpful in this discussion. Either way, I'd urge anyone who feels strongly enough about it to contact the offices.

[dawgs10]

My first thought (and I could be mistaken - has happened before) is that some decisions have been made from the results of the IO surveys that were sent out last year. If that is the case, the argument could certainly be made that the church leadership was consulted on changes before they happened. If any leaders want to share what the surveys entailed, that would probably be helpful in this discussion. Either way, I'd urge anyone who feels strongly enough about it to contact the offices.

if that is the case i would love to hear from someone that knows because as you said dewayne that would be helpful to this discussion. otherwise i strongly feel that this was something that should not have happened like it did. i hope that it will not lead to being more inward as the church was once. dont have anyone in the spotlight from cogop. it might get us dirty. i hope people understand that i want the best for cogop as much as the next person. i just dont understand doing away with the most reconized ministry for alot of people so that a fairly small amount of money can go to world ministry in the field.

[dolfan]

i just dont understand doing away with the most reconized ministry for alot of people so that a fairly small amount of money can go to world ministry in the field.

I'm going to ask for a gigantic umbrella of grace as I ask this question:

Do you really think VOS was all that recognized?? And, to that extent, is TV or radio the way you want to be recognized as opposed to local church ministry? What is the real value of VOS, as it has been for the past, say, 5 years, to the mission of COGOP? If it has been valuable, then why hasn't there been more discussion about that value here in Jude2 where, as far as I can personally see, the limited number people of people here are honestly trying pretty hard to get the most value out of their relationships with COGOP to pursue the mission of the gospel?? VOS has been mentioned here in the past 2 days more than I can recall (and my recall is faulty, so again -- grace umbrella, please) since being involved here.

I know there are other ministries at which this concern is aimed, too. But, the analysis is the same. Was men's ministry all that recognized as a particular ministry, and to that extent is that sort of "auxiliary" ministry the way you want to be recognized as opposed to organic local church ministry? What is the real value of "men's ministry", per se, as opposed to a leadership development view where men are trained to lead their homes, churches and communities in ways consistent with the gospel message? See where I'm going?

This is not meant to be a criticism of any of you who are concerned, but it is honest. Am I just loopy and don't get it? Or, is the value of these ministries so important that the guys in Cleveland are just throwing some weight around to get to their desired end? Or, is it possible that the process has to be, well, proceeded by people who have been qualified by and designated by your church as leaders? Is it possible that popular opinion really does have its limits as a governing tool?

Please be nice. I hope no one is put off by the question, especially since it comes from an outsider like me.

[dawgs10]

i just dont understand doing away with the most reconized ministry for alot of people so that a fairly small amount of money can go to world ministry in the field.

I'm going to ask for a gigantic umbrella of grace as I ask this question:

Do you really think VOS was all that recognized?? And, to that extent, is TV or radio the way you want to be recognized as opposed to local church ministry? What is the real value of VOS, as it has been for the past, say, 5 years, to the mission of COGOP? If it has been valuable, then why hasn't there been more discussion about that value here in Jude2 where, as far as I can personally see, the limited number people of people here are honestly trying pretty hard to get the most value out of their relationships with COGOP to pursue the mission of the gospel?? VOS has been mentioned here in the past 2 days more than I can recall (and my recall is faulty, so again -- grace umbrella, please) since being involved here.

I know there are other ministries at which this concern is aimed, too. But, the analysis is the same. Was men's ministry all that recognized as a particular ministry, and to that extent is that sort of "auxiliary" ministry the way you want to be recognized as opposed to organic local church ministry? What is the real value of "men's ministry", per se, as opposed to a leadership development view where men are trained to lead their homes, churches and communities in ways consistent with the gospel message? See where I'm going?

This is not meant to be a criticism of any of you who are concerned, but it is honest. Am I just loopy and don't get it? Or, is the value of these ministries so important that the guys in Cleveland are just throwing some weight around to get to their desired end? Or, is it possible that the process has to be, well, proceeded by people who have been qualified by and designated by your church as leaders? Is it possible that popular opinion really does have its limits as a governing tool?

Please be nice. I hope no one is put off by the question, especially since it comes from an outsider like me.

good questions. i would ask you to see world impact webpage to see how many tune in weekly. its large. not put off at all. i am concerned about this because we seem to be stepping back from what is a proven method of outreach and seem to be wanting to pump money in the local church. and thats great. but are we as concered for the lost as we say or are we getting away from evangelism completely and moving inside our walls with this method.

[Rob]

OK, still didn't get a reply to my question about how many listened to Tuesday's GO address.

Bill there may have been a grand total of 2000 people in there when Randy was speaking about this.

However to answer your question KB I think the Bible (imagine that) gives us a clue to what you are saying.

Proverbs 13:15a "Good understanding gains favor".

Need anymore be said?

[paul]

OK, still didn't get a reply to my question about how many listened to Tuesday's GO address.

He DID explain these things, and he DID give the reasonings why. You may feel it was not detailed enough, or you may just plain disagree with the decisions, but there was explanation, and it was communicated that there were changes and cutting back in order to put that money into areas that were deemed more important, like reaching the harvest, developing and strengthening the broader base of leadership outside of the IO, and to put money that was going into IO back out into the field.

People on this board have been asking for these things for years, I made a comment a couple months ago that the biggest issue with doing it was it would require cutting some things and as soon as they do that people will complain. I guess I was right, because that is exactly what is happening.

This is a good direction for the church, Brother Howard explained the reasoning behind it and his vision moving forward, and either people didn't listen to that, or just don't get it.

Hey I did, I thought that he laid the foundation for what was to come. He referred to streamlining...also networking, not reinventing the wheel ( which I think would have covered the men's ministry issue very well considering all the organizations that are out there.

The centeral thought is that our name and logo doesn't have to be embedded into every program that is needed by the organization. New concept for denominational organization.

[Rob]

Dolfan,

For me personally and our local church VOS, Men's Ministry, Youth Ministry, Women's Ministry, etc. has done nothing for years. I am of the opinion that media ministry, men's ministry, youth, women's, etc should be local church ministries. Local churches can choose where to send their youth, men, women to a conference or can host a web cast conference if they so choose.

In my opinion, for what it's worth, we [I] are more interested in why BW and LD were let go. LD is one of the most gifted teachers we have, and has done a lot with regards to relationship ministries. BW has built some bridges [where there once was walls] to some other ministries outside the COGOP and has helped restore some positive impressions and positions of this body to the rest of the Body of Christ. [I can give and site examples of this as well]

I have an opinion on this and that is truly all it is, is my opinion and for now I probably need to keep that to myself. And again good communication gains favor. When there is a communication break down relationships fall apart regardless of the relationship. Communication has been a problem for years with IO.

[Pastor Bill]

I agree with you on that Pastor Rob, but as I said, LD actually mentioned this when he was here in KY for the last Ministry Enrichment weekend. He was rather vague about it, but mentioned that he was looking towards some changes, I don't know that this was the church "letting him go" as much as is being assumed, the impression I got was that he was seeking some changes personally in this.

Also wasn't he serving in a couple different roles? I thought he was stepping away from this one to focus more on something else.

[dawgs10]

Dolfan,

For me personally and our local church VOS, Men's Ministry, Youth Ministry, Women's Ministry, etc. has done nothing for years. I am of the opinion that media ministry, men's ministry, youth, women's, etc should be local church ministries. Local churches can choose where to send their youth, men, women to a conference or can host a web cast conference if they so choose.

In my opinion, for what it's worth, we [I] are more interested in why BW and LD were let go. LD is one of the most gifted teachers we have, and has done a lot with regards to relationship ministries. BW has built some bridges [where there once was walls] to some other ministries outside the COGOP and has helped restore some positive impressions and positions of this body to the rest of the Body of Christ. [I can give and site examples of this as well]

I have an opinion on this and that is truly all it is, is my opinion and for now I probably need to keep that to myself. And again good communication gains favor. When there is a communication break down relationships fall apart regardless of the relationship. Communication has been a problem for years with IO.

i agree with you on this. i may be more concerned about losing BW as a voice within cogop more than vos. i have my opinions to why this happend. i guess everyone knows how i feel so this will be the last post on this from me. wish someone at io who reads these would stand up and fess up somewhat about this subject.

[Billy n NC]

The complete Tues AM session is online in the archives for those to listen Bro Howard.

http://cogopmedia.com/

The lack of communication to the members of the church has always been a major problem with HQs. Things/Decisions would be made and takes months/years to find out things.

I remember pre internet I considered gettng a subscription to the Cleveland Banner to be able to read about what was going on in Cleveland , TN.

And there again much of the info may be distributed to the State offices and then down to pastors.

With the power of the internet we should not be having all these questions. Any announcements etc that were given at the IA should have been posted on our Cogop.org website. Ohe well we can read about CeCe winans Ministery and Army Chaplains but not about ministries in our own ORG.

[Rob]

With the power of the internet we should not be having all these questions. Any announcements etc that were given at the IA should have been posted on our Cogop.org website. Ohe well we can read about CeCe winans Ministery and Army Chaplains but not about ministries in our own ORG.

AMEN, Well said!!!