Allow me to vent

[Pastor Gary]

Okay, I understand that money is not the be-all and end-all, but I am sure I am not the only Pastor who gets frustrated at having to pass up opportunities due to lack of financial resources.

Right now I have several really excellent, talented, gifted, skilled, people ready and willing to relocate and join our team, but we just can't figure out how to support them. This is not the first time we have faced this, and won't be the last, but it just frustrates me to no end to realize the lost opportunities.

Just needed to get that off my chest so I could go to bed.

[Dr. Ron]

Simple answer.....
Write HQ and since you are a mission state......propose the need to them....they have the cash. It works for others.

We all go through the same thing......faith my brother.......

[RaceRunner]

This is not a rant against you PG. But an observation on religion in general:

Why does a church have to support "really excellent, talented, gifted, skilled, people ready and willing to relocate and join" your team....( especially when that church is in such a exotic location like Hawaii? Isn't that called getting your cake and eating it too?? )

It's called "making tents" to work to support your own ministry.

When did it become common for Christians to expect the church to support their "ministry career"? Piano players, worship leaders, children's church teachers? Really, the only minister that needs full time support is the Pastor of a local church and Missionaries. Even then, it is sometimes/mostly necessary to have a secular job. Every other talent in the church should be given as a gift, a form of worship, a sacrifice...not made into a career choice.

Act 18:1-3 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them. And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

A job is how you support yourself.
A ministry is what you are called to give back to God.
While you are giving to God...
God makes a way for you to support yourself.
(and will move on other's to lend support as needed.)

Paul didn't EXPECTED financial support from the churches and he was an APOSTLE! He sought to RELIEVE the burden on the churches....NOT add to it.

2Co 11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.

2Co 12:13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

2Co 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

1Th 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

However, those churches who do give out of good will and obedient giving become more and more blessed...eventually becoming able to support the ministry more and more. Macedonia became so blessed that they were able to support the Apostle Paul (not musicians/worship leaders/etc.) when the smaller churches could not.

True and faithful ministers just go...support or no support.

[paul]

Okay, I understand that money is not the be-all and end-all, but I am sure I am not the only Pastor who gets frustrated at having to pass up opportunities due to lack of financial resources.

Right now I have several really excellent, talented, gifted, skilled, people ready and willing to relocate and join our team, but we just can't figure out how to support them. This is not the first time we have faced this, and won't be the last, but it just frustrates me to no end to realize the lost opportunities.

Just needed to get that off my chest so I could go to bed.

PG, believe me your situation is all to common. right now on my desk I have so many request and opportunities to start Bible School around the world, but lack at this time the funds to do so.

When I have so many talented and gifted leaders that want to be a part of what we are doing I must make a decision.

I pray and seek the direction as to the one, singiluar person that I feel in my Spirit above all the others would have the most direct and positive impact on the ministry for the greater and set out on a path to find a way of support for that one.

As you stated you have many. Narrow it down to one and set out on a path to find a way. Where there is a will there is a way. Because we serve a "Way Maker."

Hope you had a good nights sleep.

[pastorables]

True and faithful ministers just go...support or no support.

Your post was very good in general, and actually parallels my own ministry in ways. I think you negated much of your intended substance with the last line, which is presumptuous on too many levels.

I actually have the financial support to take care of my family, but no open ministry doors. So, what does that say?

pa

[RamboPreacher]

if God lead me or called me there, I would go.

[Pastor Bill]

as a bi-vocational pastor (working a full time job in addition to pastoring) I know what you are saying, but there is a great frustration in the fact that the work of God often has to take a back seat, or everything you'd like to get done doesn't because of the other obligations.

As a pastor I should be out spending time with members, but when I am gone 10-11 hours a day, that' gets very difficult to do, what time I am able to go then also pulls from my family time, which also should be a priority.

There is nothing wrong with bi-vocational ministry, it is a great blessing, and a wonderful calling, but at the same time, there are is so much more ministry that just goes undone. Yes there are many who volunteer, but even that takes management which involves extra time as well where paid staff are a little easier to manage (managing volunteers is like trying to herd cats)

[RaceRunner]

True and faithful ministers just go...support or no support.

Your post was very good in general, and actually parallels my own ministry in ways. I think you negated much of your intended substance with the last line, which is presumptuous on too many levels.

I actually have the financial support to take care of my family, but no open ministry doors. So, what does that say?

pa

I didn't mean to be presumptuous or accusatory. I'm sorry to have come across as that.

My post deals with EXPECTATIONS of support in the modern day notion of "religious careers" versus true scriptural ministries....with the "support" coming soley from churches. Many theological schools now disguise the concept of religious careers in the forms of "ministries".

Ministers should of course seek to support their family in all they do. A starving pastor's family doesn't look good in the community on Him OR his CHURCH...and wins very few people to Christ. However, some of our native ministers in foriegn countries have little food, but then so does everybody else over there. My local church who is blessed to be able to send moneys to help these ministers feels burdened to do so...even sponsoring the cost of an entire Bible school in a foriegn field.

Thus the "tentmaking" concept. Paul didn't have a family...but He saw that by working...he was able to work alongside people he wouldn't have reached unless he was involved in the workforce itself. He also didn't want to burden the poorer churches in some areas for his support, since he was seeking to uplift them.

However, Paul was not afraid to address the churches on the principles and blessings of giving out of cheerful hearts. He even commended some poorer churches for their sacrificial giving while the richer churches neglected to offer support.

My question is: If larger churches turn worship leaders, piano players, teachers into full time supported ministries...then how can some support those Missionaries who just need some food, clothing and shelter? ( If you can do it all....more power to ya.) However, the goal of a local church should be to reach THOSE NEEDS FIRST.

A large church here in B'ham was asked why they had Sunday Schools in portable buildings...why not build a mega building like the others in the area. The pastor (much to his credit) said, "When God tells us to stop supporting Missionaries...then we'll consider it...but not until then."

True and Faithful Ministers can and will "go ye"....where they are now planted.
A minister is a minister wherever he/she is.
On the job. In the community. In the local church. On the phone. Standing in line at the grocery store. In a Bible study at a nursing home. Bible studies in a friend's home. Ministering moms inviting other moms to her home for cookies and worship.

These doors are always open.

Then if God opens another door...(or even the case of the parable of the talents...when God sees that a minister can handle more responsibility)
Then ministers will go where God wants them to.
If God calls a minister to a place...
He will provide the support either through a job...or through someone's giving.
It may and will require Faith to make the first step.

I saw a website today that looked interesting regarding "tentmaking" ministries. http://www.globalopps.org/papers/whydid.htm
This concept seems to able to be adopted at home and abroad.
DICLAIMER:
I have no clue who runs this site or what their theology is...so I can't vouch for it. But glancing over it, it had interesting thots to delve into. Of course, I only saw a couple of pages...and it could have raging heresy involved that I don't know anything about...so Gerald...don't get all antsy now.

[pastorables]

True and Faithful Ministers can and will "go ye"....where they are now planted.
A minister is a minister wherever he/she is.
On the job.

I didn't read you as accusing. I was simply referring to your statement that says any true minister will "just go" without considering the cost. I just don't believe one can make a blanket statement about ministers without understanding individual needs and situations. There is simply too much assumption in that statement. We all know many true ministers who would like to go, but can't based upon unique needs or circumstances.

I suppose my ministry field is my grocery store, where I stand and listen to problems of others, sometimes help those in need, give offerings to other ministries and local charities, offer words of encouragement,... I also preach some at my local church when I'm able.

Sure, there are many things we can do to minister, but I was referring to almost 18 years of leadership and pulpit experience which seems to be on a shelf for now.

Blessings,
pa

[RaceRunner]

True and Faithful Ministers can and will "go ye"....where they are now planted.
A minister is a minister wherever he/she is.
On the job.

I didn't read you as accusing. I was simply referring to your statement that says any true minister will "just go" without considering the cost. I just don't believe one can make a blanket statement about ministers without understanding individual needs and situations.

My statement regarding "true ministers" was me defining the difference between....True God-called Scriptural Ministers as opposed to the modern concept of entering the religious field as simply another "career choice", fully expecting full support from the churches (& refusing to go without it) to showcase their "talents".

Of course...true ministers have individual needs and situations...which God sees and knows. Sometimes we look at the impossible and God says, "if you just trust me...I'll make it possible." I have never met a minister who didn't receive ten-fold for obeying God's direction and call.

I wrote a disclaimer at the top of the original post....and I'll reiterate...that my posts are NOT accusing PG's talented aquaintances of these things that I am speaking about...but am posting on the general atmosphere of today's modern religion.

I suppose my ministry field is my grocery store, where I stand and listen to problems of others, sometimes help those in need, give offerings to other ministries and local charities, offer words of encouragement,... I also preach some at my local church when I'm able.

Sure, there are many things we can do to minister, but I was referring to almost 18 years of leadership and pulpit experience which seems to be on a shelf for now.

For some purpose, God has placed you where you are now. It may not be all your desire...but you are certainly not on a shelf. Perhaps you will not know on this earth why you are confined to this area of your ministry for this time...but one day...God will grant you the joy to see the fruits of your grocery store ministry in Heaven.

[kurt73]

This is not a rant against you PG. But an observation on religion in general:

Why does a church have to support "really excellent, talented, gifted, skilled, people ready and willing to relocate and join" your team....( especially when that church is in such a exotic location like Hawaii? Isn't that called getting your cake and eating it too?? )

It's called "making tents" to work to support your own ministry.

When did it become common for Christians to expect the church to support their "ministry career"? Piano players, worship leaders, children's church teachers? Really, the only minister that needs full time support is the Pastor of a local church and Missionaries. Even then, it is sometimes/mostly necessary to have a secular job. Every other talent in the church should be given as a gift, a form of worship, a sacrifice...not made into a career choice.

Act 18:1-3 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them. And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

A job is how you support yourself.
A ministry is what you are called to give back to God.
While you are giving to God...
God makes a way for you to support yourself.
(and will move on other's to lend support as needed.)

Paul didn't EXPECTED financial support from the churches and he was an APOSTLE! He sought to RELIEVE the burden on the churches....NOT add to it.

2Co 11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.

2Co 12:13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

2Co 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

1Th 2:6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

However, those churches who do give out of good will and obedient giving become more and more blessed...eventually becoming able to support the ministry more and more. Macedonia became so blessed that they were able to support the Apostle Paul (not musicians/worship leaders/etc.) when the smaller churches could not.

True and faithful ministers just go...support or no support.

Very good post. When we start putting a price on what God has given us to use to do His work we are going down a dangerous path. Money/Salary has taken the place of faith.

I do agree that some position ''if'' the church can should help support i.e. associate pastors & youth pastors. Worship leaders, men's/women's minstry leaders, sunday school teachers, etc. should be doing this without pay and use their talent God has given to reach His people.

[Dr. Ron]

As a minister who never had a salary and lived by faith for over 25 years, your post was okay......only if you have done it.

I was raised to go where I was told and make do with what I recieved. My dad was a pastor for 38 years.....never was appointed to a church that paid the limit when he went there. ( except for 1 year at Robert's tabernacle) and never left a church that wasn't limit paying.....usually with a parsonage.
We lived by faith ........was not bi-vocational.....and made it just fine.

I lived for 25 years without salary....just offerings in revivals. We made it but just.........

After the fact....however, I would not subject my family to that again. I am 61 with no investments....no retirement.....and if my wife didn't work, we would have no insurance.

Churches generally don't care about the future of the pastor....unless they want him moved...

My recommendation is to be bi-vocational and do the best you can where you feel comfortable. As for others "joining the team", they have to make their own living without hoping for the church to do it for them.

I give all my staff the opportunity to build a ministry so that IT support them.....not the other way around. People who are dedicated will come and support themselves while they build their ministry. If they are not willing to make that sacrifice, you may not want them on your staff. It might not be the best thing for you.

In conclusion.....I should have done many things differently. My only hope is that the sacrifices my family has made, will result in someone going to heaven....that will make it worth it all.....

And yet....I still have to pastor till I die.....

[Dr. Ron]

Please note that my previous post was for those who just want staff positions....If God has called you to lead a congregation, that is different.

[kurt73]

As a minister who never had a salary and lived by faith for over 25 years, your post was okay......only if you have done it.

I was raised to go where I was told and make do with what I recieved. My dad was a pastor for 38 years.....never was appointed to a church that paid the limit when he went there. ( except for 1 year at Robert's tabernacle) and never left a church that wasn't limit paying.....usually with a parsonage.
We lived by faith ........was not bi-vocational.....and made it just fine.

I lived for 25 years without salary....just offerings in revivals. We made it but just.........

After the fact....however, I would not subject my family to that again. I am 61 with no investments....no retirement.....and if my wife didn't work, we would have no insurance.

Churches generally don't care about the future of the pastor....unless they want him moved...

My recommendation is to be bi-vocational and do the best you can where you feel comfortable. As for others "joining the team", they have to make their own living without hoping for the church to do it for them.

I give all my staff the opportunity to build a ministry so that IT support them.....not the other way around. People who are dedicated will come and support themselves while they build their ministry. If they are not willing to make that sacrifice, you may not want them on your staff. It might not be the best thing for you.

In conclusion.....I should have done many things differently. My only hope is that the sacrifices my family has made, will result in someone going to heaven....that will make it worth it all.....

And yet....I still have to pastor till I die.....

Ron,

Trust me your sacrifices has done wonders in people lifes. I know from experience. You may not have a retirement plan here on earth but I'm sure you are rich in Heaven, God Bless.

[RaceRunner]

Dr. Ron wrote:

...As for others "joining the team", they have to make their own living without hoping for the church to do it for them.

...People who are dedicated will come and support themselves while they build their ministry. If they are not willing to make that sacrifice, you may not want them on your staff. It might not be the best thing for you.

Then we agree.
Except my personal change would be to replace "their ministry" with "the (local) church's" ministry . But that's a whole nuther topic and thread based on beliefs we would never agree on anyway


And no...I'm not a licensed minister and greatly appreciate any and all sacrifices made on behalf of them. I pray that God will grant each God-called minister the funds, the way, and the means to support themselves, their families, and their ministries abundantly. And I pray that God always give me the ability to lend my help and resources to their support.

I also...a person who is NOT called into the preaching ministry ...still has the responsibility as a Child of God to sacrifice my time, talents and money...to go where God leads, and do as He directs...through Faith...without counting the costs. If God nudges me and wants that last $20 in my pocket and requests that I pledge even more...then I am responsible to fulfill that call on my life .......fully trusting God is able to provide for my needs. And guess what! He has NEVER NOT provided! I am much safer placing my life, talents, and finances into the hand of the Sovereign God, then leaning unto mine own understanding.