Allow me to vent

[paul]

Dr. Ron

As a minister who never had a salary and lived by faith for over 25 years, your post was okay......only if you have done it.

I lived for 25 years without salary....just offerings in revivals. We made it but just.........

I know exactly where you are coming from. Nancy and I have lived by faith. Even now, we have a few churches that tithe to the ministry strickly on a voluntere basis. We take no salary, we live off speaking engagements. The majority of what is received by the ministry goes straight to the mission fields.

We have no retirement, no investments other than the our home we bought 12 years ago. My insurance is from the VA. As a young minister who struggled to make it full time in ministry I opted out of S.S. ( mistake on my part). But God sustained us and of 38 years in ministry I was bi-vocational only 10. Most of that (7 years)was after I left cogop and was in transition.

After the fact....however, I would not subject my family to that again. I am 61 with no investments....no retirement.....and if my wife didn't work, we would have no insurance.

Yep! would do a few things different. I actually believed a few overseers and their empty promises, only to see self seeking hirelings be rewarded.

As for others "joining the team", they have to make their own living without hoping for the church to do it for them.

When I mentioned that I seek God as to that one individual that will make a real difference in our ministry, I meant that. After we feel led to open a work in another country, when we feel confident in our heart that it is the right one, at the right time, with the right person, it is the start. As a rule there will be little if any support for the first year. Walking out our vision together, making sure of the motive, character, integrity. Then our support will be gradual.. At first no individual support...only tools and material necessary for the work,,,, with time proven the support expands and schools are set up...

This may differ from the American approach but I think the principle is still applicable.

In conclusion.....I should have done many things differently. My only hope is that the sacrifices my family has made, will result in someone going to heaven....that will make it worth it all.....

"DITTO" " DITTO " "DITTO"

[darylscook]

I opted out of S.S. ( mistake on my part).

Opting out of SS was not a mistake. Not replaceing it with about 1/2 of what the gvt would've taken and putting it in good mutual funds after opting out. that was the mistake.

Just providing a prospective.

Pastor Daryl

[Dr. Ron]

Racerunner...
I didn't make a mis-statement when I said "their ministries". That is the whole issue here. If you are hiring someone to operate a program that is one thing....

Here a person has the opportunity to build their own ministry under the umbrella of the church. We have a mutual benefit situation.

Saddleback is a great example of this. John Baker was the originator of Celebrate Recovery. It is "showcased" at Saddleback but John actually owns the 501 (c) (3) . It is his ministry. But a good 70% of the members of SB come through that ministry. Saddleback has never had to invest a dime in the success of that ministry....Same with the music ministry. It belongs to Rick Muchow....he did the same thing...Most mega churches operate that way. I have two ministries working on that now.

So, I did not mis_speak in that way....and Pastor Gary needs to look at that model as well. It makes a lot of sense....and saves the church a bundle.

BTW, Paul, we know where of we speak, bro.....and living by faith ain't all that bad sometimes.

[RaceRunner]

Racerunner...
I didn't make a mis-statement when I said "their ministries". That is the whole issue here. If you are hiring someone to operate a program that is one thing....

Here a person has the opportunity to build their own ministry under the umbrella of the church. We have a mutual benefit situation.

Saddleback is a great example of this......

I wasn't indicating that you were mis-speaking Dr. Ron. No problemo here. (My posts were concentrated on "hired staffers" anyway.)

I was basically just noting MY "denominational diffs" in viewpoint ....since I obviously wouldn't be a subscriber of the Saddleback model anyway (however good or beneficial it may be)...considering my background and all


TW

[Pastor Gary]

Let me go out on a limb here...

I would guess that Racerunner is not now, nor never has been committed to full-time ministry.

I would guess that Racerunner is from a church in which several people wear multiple hats, and serve in more than one volunteer position.

I would guess that Racerunner's church has less than 50 people.

[paul]

I opted out of S.S. ( mistake on my part).

Opting out of SS was not a mistake. Not replaceing it with about 1/2 of what the gvt would've taken and putting it in good mutual funds after opting out. that was the mistake.

Just providing a prospective.

Pastor Daryl

Darylcook, I would not disagree with you. But that was a different time. At that time if I recall if you worked your SS % was 7%. If you were self employed ( minister) it was 14%. some of this was before all the 401's and IRA

I used that extra 14% to help feed my family. But no regrets, it was our choice ( my wife and mine).

Again if I had it to do over. I would certinally lean on the promises of God more than I did on the promises of man.

But again that along with many other life lessons has brought me to the place I am today. So no complaints.

[RaceRunner]

Let me go out on a limb here...
I would guess that Racerunner is not now, nor never has been committed to full-time ministry.

Already stated in a previous post. I am not a called woman preacher or evangelist. Just a member / appointed volunteer who feels called to support her local church & minister and missions.

I would guess that Racerunner is from a church in which several people wear multiple hats, and serve in more than one volunteer position.

I currently wear two and 1/2. (1/2 meaning assistant).

I would guess that Racerunner's church has less than 50 people.

60's. (not all members). Our building seats 300 and we do have community outreach to people who are not at all connected with our "past".

There are only so many mega-churches in this world. Your church runs what 100+? The scriptural principles of staff/volunteer ministry remain the same no matter how small or large....to which Dr. Ron just referred to in the Saddleback formula.

I suppose Saddleback (having not personally looked into it) must have taken an old-time scriptural tried-and-true formula of staff volunteers and put a modern twist of promoting Individual Ministries under a church umbrella. Saddleback runs...what?....in the thousands+ now??

The Apostles / Disciples turned their known world upside down without paid staff...that's why they invented Deacons
And THAT Gentlemen was a joke.


edited to say...(not all members)

[Steve]

Could it be that many churches are really operating as businesses and not communities of believers? Why do we feel that we should "hire" folks?

Where there is an employer/employee relationship, the employee is always beholding to the employer. Where the money flows the corruption goes....

I know the money doesn't "flow" at a lot of places.....and I am not pointing fingers.....it is only a question.

[Dr. Ron]

Darlyscook,'

As Paul has so eloquently stated , most of us used that money to buy food. If you ever live on faith alone.....it is doubtful that you will ever look at the stock market again.......

I realize the younger generation is in better shape....some have inherited money and given them a "leg up" on the fnancial side.

We just lived in a suitcase. For three years my family of four each had a trunk and our stuff was in that trunk. We dragged those things into parsonages all over the country. Sometimes (manY) our boys slept in sleeping bags on the floor of the room we stayed in at the parsonage.....so no there was nothing to invest...except in a tank of gas to get us to the next revival.

Just so you'll know.......

[Pastor Gary]

Already stated in a previous post. I am not a called woman preacher or evangelist. Just a member / appointed volunteer who feels called to support her local church & minister and missions.

Wonderful.. I wish I had a few dozen more members like you. I have some, but (it seems) never enough.

I currently wear two and 1/2. (1/2 meaning assistant).

And the REASON you wear more than one hat is because there never seem to be enough volunteers in small/medium-sized churches to cover all the volunteer positions with any depth -- a volunteer + at least one, preferably several backups to give that person a break, cover sickness and vacations, and train and equip replacements. That seems to be a huge reason for volunteer burn-out.

60's. Our building seats 300 and we do have community outreach to people who are not at all connected with our "past".

May the Lord fill your 300 seats and then refill them with multiple services to handle the crowds.

There are only so many mega-churches in this world.

I didn't mention mega-churches. I am not pastoring a mega-church, nor do I really desire to. I, frankly, am not equipped to be a mega-church pastor. It takes a special breed of leader to spiritually feed + manage the logistics of such an endeavor. (Mega-churches are defined as 2,500 +) I do desire to lead a church of about 1,100-1,200 and believe I am able to do so, but not alone. NO pastor can be effective leading over a thousand congregants as a solo pastor, IMHO. Hence the desire to add some full-time, totally devoted to the mission staff.

Your church runs what 100+?

Well, on our best days about twice that, but we honestly don't count heads or keep attendance records. We have no desire to REMAIN that small, however... we could be making much more impact in our community, and should be.

The scriptural principles of staff/volunteer ministry remain the same no matter how small or large....to which Dr. Ron just referred to in the Saddleback formula.

Preaching to the choir, friend. I served as an unpaid volunteer for YEARS before I became a full-time pastor. We have 60+ (maybe 70 now, need to count...) unpaid volunteers who help us do church effectively each week... Children's Ministries team, 9 tech people for audio/video, load-in/load-out, worship band (another 8 or 9 people depending upon the week) greeters, clean-up crew, accounting and office help... we run on volunteers and are trying to be "3 deep all around," meaning 3 people trained and ready to fill any job that needs doing. We are close in some areas, but not in all, sadly. The burnout rate for volunteers is HUGE.

I suppose Saddleback (having not personally looked into it) must have taken an old-time scriptural tried-and-true formula of staff volunteers and put a modern twist of promoting Individual Ministries under a church umbrella. Saddleback runs...what?....in the thousands+ now??

Tens of thousands. And they have a huge PAID staff, also. (They have 12 paid job openings right now, if anyone is interested.) It's not an either/or -- it is BOTH. There is a huge need for dedicated, committed, skilled volunteers, but that doesn't negate the advantages of having some people who are hired to give 40 (usually more like 60+) hours each week to helping the church grow deeper and broader.

The Apostles / Disciples turned their known world upside down without paid staff...that's why they invented Deacons
And THAT Gentlemen was a joke.

I am sure they did, but -- and this is no joke -- few of us are the Apostles. We have a failing economy, gas at $4+/gallon, mounting debt, and very few hours to give to church volunteer work.

I am sorry I posted my vent. I should have saved it for another venue.

[Dr. Ron]

Don't be sorry for the vent......you never know what will come out of it.
You are proof of what I just said....

You went there as an unpaid volunteer ......became pastor....now you are the overseer.....and who knows what is next ....maybe GO someday.lol

[darylscook]

Paul

I know it must have been hard, but I was replying to the thought that YOU said it was a mistake to opt out of SS. Not me, I was trying to share that a better option than not opting out was to opt out and keep 7% and invest 7%. You would've come out better.

I just thought it was another opportunity to share my thoughts that it is only a mistake to opt out if you don't invest 1/2 somewhere. And if a young minister has opted out, they really need to plan for retirement AND purchase long term disability.

I apologize if I came across as criticizing you for making sacrifices, or if I came across as insensitive to those struggles.

Pastor Daryl

[paul]

Paul

I know it must have been hard, but I was replying to the thought that YOU said it was a mistake to opt out of SS. Not me, I was trying to share that a better option than not opting out was to opt out and keep 7% and invest 7%. You would've come out better.

I just thought it was another opportunity to share my thoughts that it is only a mistake to opt out if you don't invest 1/2 somewhere. And if a young minister has opted out, they really need to plan for retirement AND purchase long term disability.

I apologize if I came across as criticizing you for making sacrifices, or if I came across as insensitive to those struggles.

No, not at all. I did not see it as critical. That was what I meant by mistake, because we had to use the funds for food and necessities. I wish I had been able to invest it. And I would advise any young pastor that before they even consider it to make sure they have a way to save or invest their part.

As a young preacher, I wasn't savy on a lot of things. All I knew was I was called to preach and that was what I wanted to spend my life doing full time. Thanks for your input.

[RaceRunner]

Wonderful.. I wish I had a few dozen more members like you. I have some, but (it seems) never enough.

Well, you'd have to talk to my pastor about how many members LIKE ME he would like to have. I TRY to be good though.

And the REASON you wear more than one hat is because there never seem to be enough volunteers in small/medium-sized churches to cover all the volunteer positions with any depth -- a volunteer + at least one, preferably several backups to give that person a break, cover sickness and vacations, and train and equip replacements. That seems to be a huge reason for volunteer burn-out.

Yeah, it seems that only 20% of the people do all the work...no matter how large you get. But, the closer to God people get...they more they volunteer. So, I guess Discipleship and the Spirit of God moving in our churches would bring us more help! Wouldn't it be wonderful if 3000 showed up in one day!!!!!

May the Lord fill your 300 seats and then refill them with multiple services to handle the crowds.

And in your's too PG. The more people brought to Jesus Christ, the better. I suppose it's difficult to talk the masses away from the magnificent beaches to attend church over there.

I didn't mention mega-churches. I am not pastoring a mega-church, nor do I really desire to. I, frankly, am not equipped to be a mega-church pastor. It takes a special breed of leader to spiritually feed + manage the logistics of such an endeavor. (Mega-churches are defined as 2,500 +) I do desire to lead a church of about 1,100-1,200 and believe I am able to do so, but not alone. NO pastor can be effective leading over a thousand congregants as a solo pastor, IMHO. Hence the desire to add some full-time, totally devoted to the mission staff.

I agree. Not a fan of "Mega" either.

Well, on our best days about twice that, but we honestly don't count heads or keep attendance records. We have no desire to REMAIN that small,

Wonderful! I hope you grow and bless your community.

....however... we could be making much more impact in our community, and should be.

We all could and should.

Preaching to the choir, friend. I served as an unpaid volunteer for YEARS before I became a full-time pastor. We have 60+ (maybe 70 now, need to count...) unpaid volunteers who help us do church effectively each week... Children's Ministries team, 9 tech people for audio/video, load-in/load-out, worship band (another 8 or 9 people depending upon the week) greeters, clean-up crew, accounting and office help... we run on volunteers and are trying to be "3 deep all around," meaning 3 people trained and ready to fill any job that needs doing. We are close in some areas, but not in all, sadly. The burnout rate for volunteers is HUGE.

To avoid burnout, I have begun to cut back on my volunteerism in terms of quantity, so I can do quality. That's why I have 2 this year! I REFUSE to believe that I am indispensible and tell my pastor and state overseer that. They always seem to find a qualified replacement...some quiet person...no one thought of asking before...that does an even better job than I did! (Hi, Emily!)

Tens of thousands. And they have a huge PAID staff, also.

Wow! Don't necessarily agree with that...nor would really wish to attend anything THAT large. But that's just me.

The Apostles / Disciples turned their known world upside down without paid staff...that's why they invented Deacons
And THAT Gentlemen was a joke.

I am sure they did, but -- and this is no joke -- few of us are the Apostles. We have a failing economy, gas at $4+/gallon, mounting debt, and very few hours to give to church volunteer work.

No they didn't have those obstacles....they had to walk, ride a donkey or sail on a ship for 3 months.

I am sorry I posted my vent. I should have saved it for another venue.

Why? These posts were not directed to you, your search, or your desire for talented help. You would have more than enough help if true ministers would catch the vision, (find a job ) and step out in faith....without expecting your church to pay them. They could help you grow your church with more members...who in turn would become volunteers to help you and your church fulfill it's ministries and dreams. All it takes is the power of God!

TW

[Pastor Gary]

Why? These posts were not directed to you, your search, or your desire for talented help. You would have more than enough help if true ministers would catch the vision, (find a job ) and step out in faith....without expecting your church to pay them. They could help you grow your church with more members...who in turn would become volunteers to help you and your church fulfill it's ministries and dreams. All it takes is the power of God!

This is one of the highest cost of living areas in the country -- one of the highest in the WORLD. Many of our people work 2 and 3 jobs just to make ends meet. Rent/cost of housing is astronomical here. One of my members is trying desperately to sell an 1100 square foot house that is built with SINGLE WALL CONSTRUCTION... that means the exterior wall is 3/4" thick, one board, and the inside of the wall is the other side of that board! It is on a tiny lot in a not that great area. Asking price? $799,000 reduced from $813,000.

So I have these people, called of God, passionate about ministry, and the suggestion is that I ask them to pack their families, pull them out their schools, remove them from their social support network, move 5,000 miles from grandma and grandpa, to a very VERY different culture, so they can minister in whatever spare time they can squeeze out of the leftover time from working multiple jobs just to survive here? Sure... sounds like a plan.

"Do it for the cause, brother!" (I wouldn't want that done to me, and I won't do it to others.)