Allow me to vent

[RaceRunner]

I think it is very interesting (read "annoying") that people who have never stepped out in faith to fulfill their God-called ministry would presume to give instruction and criticism to those who are actually doing the work. It amazes me that so many of the "experts" are those who sit back in their comfortable homes and never risk anything for the gospel.

We've already prayed over this decision.... and the door remained opened for us to remain in B'ham for approx. 2 more years. However, if my husband's job calls him to Kansas City (a city where our closest church is 2+ hours away), we may have to become a church mission planter in the near future. Not Hawaii...but....

All you are doing is great. Like PG said, I wish I had a few more people with that kind of commitment in my church; however, that is not the case. When you do start that mission church you might understand a little better what I was talking about. As it stands, since you apparently can not relate from an experiential standpoint to PG's original post, your comments are not so well taken.

Point taken.

You're right.

Pat yourself on the back. I've been properly chastised and rebuked.

Did you read the letters from India????

tw

LOL. I'm not trying to chastise or rebuke you! No, I didn't read the letters from India. I know how God works and that He provides for those who step out in faith. I've done it and am doing it now as I am planting a new church. I just find it rather annoying when people who have never done that in a real and substantial way try to instruct people who are doing it. I'm sorry if I've offended you!

You need to read them...they are very eye opening and the pastors there really need your prayers.

There is no possible way you could offend me.

True Christians would and should never allow anyone to turn them from serving Jesus Christ. (which is what true offense means).

I love the song....

I may stumble,
I may fall down,
But I will not be moved
I will make mistakes
I will face heartaches,
But I will not be moved
On Christ the solid rock I stand
all others are on sinking sand
I will not be moved.

Everybody sing!!!

I shall not be, I shall not be moved...

Ya'll have a good evening....I gotta go brush up on a SS lesson that I'm hopefully not teaching tomorrow.

[RaceRunner]

One more thing before I go....

Pastor Chip!

My hubby just pointed out you live in Crossville, TN. My daughter went to TCOG in Crossville for a while for school before she got married and I was able to attend church there a couple of times.

I know Jimmy Bivens from Cogop there. He was my ex-pastor many, many years ago in Texas. We were able to see him one time, but missed seeing Beka.

Bro. Lawson (don't know first name) pastors the Bessemer Cogop here (Woodland Hills - my form church) and he has relatives from that area. I've met him a few times in the restaurants 'round here.

Small world.

[Pastor Gary]

But that would be impossible wouldn't it?

I think I take back what I said about wishing I had a bunch of members like you. I already have enough people who have never done it, but can tell me exactly how I should be doing it.

But at least I would help and lend my support.

Not worth it, in my experience. Any time you have people who "help" the pastor by telling him his practical considerations are evidence of lack of faith gets passed over -- their "help" is far too costly in the pastor's time and energy. I have a guy here, now, who is smart, talented, well-educated, good-hearted, visible in the community, and totally unusable. He is not a team player and only comes regularly if he can get me to do things his way... which is generally contrary to the way the rest of the congregation sees things and opposite of the vision of the house.

[Pastor Chip]

One more thing before I go....

Pastor Chip!

My hubby just pointed out you live in Crossville, TN. My daughter went to TCOG in Crossville for a while for school before she got married and I was able to attend church there a couple of times.

I wasn't aware of a TCOG in Crossville. Guess I'm a little behind.

I know Jimmy Bivens from Cogop there. He was my ex-pastor many, many years ago in Texas. We were able to see him one time, but missed seeing Beka.

Bro. Lawson (don't know first name) pastors the Cogop here (my old church) and he has relatives from that area. I've met him a few times in the restaurants 'round here.

Small world.

I know Jimmy Bivens and I guess all of the Lawsons. In fact, one of them lives right down the street from me. Small world, indeed.

[one love]

Is that the reason that the others that agreed with Racerunner are not getting these replies because they are preachers? Just curious because for the most part most agreed with the initial post.
Being a state worker is a ministry with a lot of traveling though, only difference is more speaking instead of preaching.


With that said I have been asked to be many things and one of them recently was a associate pastor with salary. It would have required a move etc.
If a church can afford to pay for positions like these so be it. I do feel it is different when someone expects to get paid to do their part, whether singing, worship team, youth leader, missionary leader, janitor, greeter etc..... I think a pastor is the one full time position that you know would need a salary and even then it does not always happen. I have pastored and just about all my funds went to the work not to me.

NOW I think it depends on what PG is trying to do and what kind of positions these are (regardless it is always aggravating to want to do something but the funds are just not available). If they are missionaries and need to do this full time, trying to set up more churches etc. It would be nice to help them. I can understand how hard it is to live in a expensive area.
Hawaii is much more then Va beach but even then you are looking at $1500 a month for a 2 bedroom apartment. If you have a family and you were going to go pastor that area and they were limit paying, you would still need a full time job to make it. I know Hawaii is the same it does cost a lot to live there. But if it is song leaders etc. I don't see why they would have to be paid.
I had a friend that I used to work with and he was lost, deeply in sin. This guy could play a piano or organ like you have never heard. When he needed money all he needed to do is go to his moms episcopal church and play for that Sunday morning service and he would get a couple hundred dollars. I always thought that was crazy.
I am one that is a minister and have moved to another area but I feel it depends on what it is PG is needing them for. Not to mention how HE feels is what matters. If he feels led to bring someone in and pay them, the church can afford it so be it. (he is pastor and overseer)
Yet none of us truly minister expecting to make money out of it. We look for souls, God takes care of the rest. I know you would all agree. Yes when we are asked to pastor Money is mentioned because you have to plan out what to do etc. But the ultimate goal is to win the lost.
As I mentioned I Pastored and worked full time, I understand. I am state worker for Sunday school. I don't get paid and don't expect to. I will be traveling to other churches all over the state ( I will get a offering to help with gas) but I do it for the Lord and his church.
The other question is would this be a type of position that is full time work? So many variables. I can understand PG's frustration but also agree with Racerunner that if God has called them there he will make a way.

I am NO expert

I did think that he was just trying to vent so maybe these post should have just been a response of prayer for the Lord to work it all out

I will be praying PG

---let me add if this would be a full time position, someone could not just move to Hawaii unless they have some serious money put away, it cost a lot to move to certain areas, I really can understand that aspect----

[RaceRunner]

But that would be impossible wouldn't it?

I think I take back what I said about wishing I had a bunch of members like you. I already have enough people who have never done it, but can tell me exactly how I should be doing it.

But at least I would help and lend my support.

Not worth it, in my experience. Any time you have people who "help" the pastor by telling him his practical considerations are evidence of lack of faith gets passed over -- their "help" is far too costly in the pastor's time and energy. I have a guy here, now, who is smart, talented, well-educated, good-hearted, visible in the community, and totally unusable. He is not a team player and only comes regularly if he can get me to do things his way... which is generally contrary to the way the rest of the congregation sees things and opposite of the vision of the house.

Well...this time YOUR experience fails you.

But that's okay.

Actually, I'm a fairly low maintenance member. But admittedly not perfect.....because one hasn't been invented yet from what I hear.

Not to brag:
I attend regularly (Sunday AM, PM and Wednesdays) unless out of town or sick or have had to work late and fight an hour of traffic on a stormy night. I fill in where needed. Love to follow, love to be an assistant.... but willing to lead when called upon (exept I'm not fond of being in Christmas plays for some reason

I only call my pastor if I"m really sick or can't make it to an event.... or to make sure that I'm leading according to his wishes.....if I wasn't able to speak with him at church first, which is the usualy case. He hasn't needed to chastise me....I don't think I've done anything to make him want to.....yet (oh wait, I just thought of something he would chastise me for! He would tell me to "get off Jude2 and quit picking on those people and quit wasting your time!)

Believe it or not....I don't offer my Pastor advice, don't criticise him (believe it or not):D and believes he does a great job...and have complimented him too. He and his wife have really done a wonderful job in leading our church during some difficult situations and really deserves our respect. I'm amazed how He has helped us navigate rough waters with Spiritual peace. Our pastor suggested the visitation and he does it himself also. He's been here for 10 years. I'm sure we've had differences in the past...who hasn't....but we've all grown and matured through the years...and all is good.

We have some wonderful loving and working people here. I stated before that usually only 20% are workers in the church...but I will have to rescind that for my church. The MAJORITY here are church workers...and many work way harder than I do. Since I do work a full time job....I just try to keep up!

I go along with the rest of the congregation and usually just ask how I can help and will offer suggestions if wanted. Doesn't hurt my feelings if my suggestions aren't used. I don't care what the color of the carpet, pews or bathroom paint colors are and am basically happy with whatever the church chooses....even if it is a blinding bright pink However, the ladies voted to re-paint to a less shocking shade! If the color isn't my favorite...hey! I don't live there and don't own it.

As I get older, I've learned I can't participate in everything (I've was in AZ and had my back out on the first visitations we've instituted...but I was able to attend today...now that I'm better. I may not be able to wash cars all day long with the VLB's anymore...but I'll bring my car and make a hefty donation and buy lots of donuts. Just ask...I'll help if I'm healthy and available, which reminds me...I need to check on the date for the Yard Sale.

My back doesn't allow me to clean the church any more and many others are the same with their health...so we do hire a church family to do so...but I pick up trash, re-stock toilet paper rolls and unstop toilets without being asked.

As noted before, I've requested to be relieved of my ABM care group....because as told to my pastor....I just don't seem to have that talent and I didn't want the members to feel neglected.... and he found an excellent replacement in one of our newest members. My husband would make an excellent band leader...He LOVES stuff like that. For now, he's a good SS superintendant.....which is the reason I'm an emergency floater SS teaching assistant. He can put down the phone and say...Tammy...you need to teach!!!!!

I help decorate, bring food (although unfortunately I'm not the best cook in the church) and help in the kitchen. I sit on the 5th row from front, far right. (there are 12 rows on my side of the church). But am perfectly willing to move if someone else wants to sit there. Hey, I don't own the spot.

Although, I love to sing robustly during song services ....I don't think I'm a very good special singer. My pastor and his wife have finally talked me into singing special songs...don't know why...but it's their ears that suffer. I used to be disobedient in that area...but the Lord chastised me...so I got some tapes....poor, poor church!!!! No really...you need to feel sorry for my church's ears!!! Really. I hoped that once they heard me....they would quit asking....no such luck, I guess. They must really be desparate for specials 'round here.

I will admit...we're having a campout at the church next weekend and have invited those with tents and stuff to stay all night long....however.....I'm very fond of my brand new mattress....so I will admittedly stay and participate until 11:00 and then probably dash home for a softer bed for my back.

I do need to be an even better member. I'm sure I have personality faults, quirks and irritations. But I can't think of any right now.

And...no need to point them out for me here....THAT WAS A JOKE!!!
And my hubby doesn't poste here and neither does my Pastor....so we'll just pretend I'm pretty good for now!

[RaceRunner]

ONE LOVE WROTE: I did think that he was just trying to vent so maybe these post should have just been a response of prayer for the Lord to work it all out

Well, the first post indicated that the hijack (and who has not hijacked on this forum..especially against my church ) was not posted as a criticism of PG, even though he and other ministers took it that way. Sorry about that. And as stated before....I'll offer my prayers for your needs to be met and provided for PG.

If one truly read and understood my previous posts....

One would realize that I was not criticizing PG or God called ministers (many of who are on this forum), but was commenting on the religious world's me-centric teaching of "show me the money" and "recognize my talent" before I'll go . "Pay me for leading songs!!!"

This disables pastors and churches because theology schools are not teaching people the principles of sacrifice and the concept of actually helping to support and grow a church. They are taught how to choose "careers" based on their talents and call them ministries...EXPECTING overworked, underpaid pastors and churches to provide their income. Forget even asking them to take a job (oh no) "on top of doing my ministry!!!!"

If Bible colleges really taught the principles of true ministry....then all ministers...especially those on this forum wouldn't have to vent....they would have all the help they needed!

Contrary to popular opinion: I was talking about help....not the pastors on this forum. Modern denominations calls everything a "ministry" now days...which is okay...but the title doesn't mean that the church has to pay for it. If it is too expensive to ship in or hire help....Would local people help more and learn more if paid?? Hopefully, they would help without being paid. But that is between them and God ain't it?

I really suspect that some theology schools saw a way to boost their enrollment and income by creating new "ministerial" positions since there are only so many pastoral positions and paying churches in the denominational world. Mega churches are a great help in creating ministerial "careers".

[Pastor Gary]

...I was not criticizing PG or God called ministers (many of who are on this forum), but was commenting on the religious world's me-centric teaching of "show me the money" and "recognize my talent" before I'll go . "Pay me for leading songs!!!"

Enough of this, please. Thought you had a SS lesson to study... sure didn't study too long.

This is the third or fourth mention of pay related to "leading songs" or playing music. I don't recall saying ANYTHING about music being involved in this at all. You injected that. I want some full-time+ ministers to work alongside me, and the workman is worthy of his hire.Period. I am not seeking lay-volunteers, but peers.

This disables pastors and churches because theology schools are not teaching people the principles of sacrifice and the concept of actually helping to support and grow a church. They are taught how to choose "careers" based on their talents and call them ministries...EXPECTING overworked, underpaid pastors and churches to provide their income. Forget even asking them to take a job (oh no) "on top of doing my ministry!!!!"

If Bible colleges really taught the principles of true ministry....then all ministers...especially those on this forum wouldn't have to vent....they would have all the help they needed!

Contrary to popular opinion: I was talking about help....not the pastors on this forum. Modern denominations calls everything a "ministry" now days...which is okay...but the title doesn't mean that the church has to pay for it. If it is too expensive to ship in or hire help....Would local people help more and learn more if paid?? Hopefully, they would help without being paid. But that is between them and God ain't it?

I really suspect that some theology schools saw a way to boost their enrollment and income by creating new "ministerial" positions since there are only so many pastoral positions and paying churches in the denominational world. Mega churches are a great help in creating ministerial "careers".

Do you have any clue what you are talking about??? What "Theology Schools" are you referring to? I am a student at one of the world's largest Theological Seminaries and I challenge you to find more dedicated, sacrificial, sold-out servants than most of those in my cohort.

Name names. What school teaches careerism?
(And since you provoked this, it would do a lot of pastors in your organization a lot of good to get some Theological education and not just read stuff written wrapped in the flag.)

[RaceRunner]

I wasn't aware of a TCOG in Crossville. Guess I'm a little behind.

Been there for a few years. Last time I was there, they were renting the Veteran's building on the street behind the KMart until they could find a new building.

[RaceRunner]

...I was not criticizing PG or God called ministers (many of who are on this forum), but was commenting on the religious world's me-centric teaching of "show me the money" and "recognize my talent" before I'll go . "Pay me for leading songs!!!"

Enough of this, please. Thought you had a SS lesson to study... sure didn't study too long.

This is the third or fourth mention of pay related to "leading songs" or playing music. I don't recall saying ANYTHING about music being involved in this at all. You injected that. I want some full-time+ ministers to work alongside me, and the workman is worthy of his hire.Period. I am not seeking lay-volunteers, but peers.

Yeah, I know....nobody called to cancel tonight....so I'm off the hook. At this point....they combine the Adult classes if they don't call the night before. Maybe next week. But then....don't you also have to add those finishing touches to tomorrow's message??

Since...I stated in the VERY FIRST post and in one or two subsequent posts......that I wasn't talking about YOU in the first place....You'll get ulcers if you keep thinking everyone is tallking about or criticizing YOU all the time.... I only included YOU at times...because you took things so PERSONALLY

Everybody else gets to generally hijack.... and I wasn't even criticing cogop's stance on D&R!

In light of this...why do you think I was suggesting YOU were seeking singers??? That was just an general "rant" example...could have used women's, men, youth, children ministries instead...in fact I think they were mentioned in another post also.

You never mentioned WHO you were looking for and since you took offense at the "minister's should go ye", even Dr. Ron thought you meant "staff" help.

But then...once again...my posts really weren't about your situation in the first place, even though I took the liberty to hijack your vent.

You seem really stressed

I'll really pray God sends the ministers you need.

[RaceRunner]

PG wrote: What school teaches careerism?

Naming names could actually be considered slander in some circles. I'm sure you could get your hand on a local phone book with your connections. One of our local universities have become so liberal that even it's parent denomination has disowned it

PG wrote: (And since you provoked this, it would do a lot of pastors in your organization a lot of good to get some Theological education and not just read stuff written wrapped in the flag.)

Actually, I agree with you about getting more education. I firmly believe the more Bible knowledge the better. There ARE Bible classes that are very beneficial ALONG with church material (oh no...now you're gonna have Gerald hijack this thread to talk about the flag!!!!!)

My child is currently taking a few of these classes. But...(generalization alert!!!) the overwhelming prevalent teaching of OSAS (and a few other imaginary doctrines) is basically useless and at times must be endured.

So we have successfully concluded this thread by mentioning TCOG, D&R and the flag! Keeping up traditions is very important ya know!

(Picking on ya'll is really enjoyable....if you want me to go away...just ignore me and this poor little hijacked vent thread can sink to oblivion)

[one love]

PG how did this turn into a rant against TCOG???????? I thought I responded pretty fair. Others disagreed with the concept in these post yet no attention was made to them?

As a note many in TCOG go to college and study other material, I will be one as well..

[Pastor Gary]

PG how did this turn into a rant against TCOG????????

Rant?? One sentence in a lengthy exchange is hardly a rant.

I thought I responded pretty fair. Others disagreed with the concept in these post yet no attention was made to them?

I didn't mention you, either... I didn't even mention your group by name. I responded to the idea being presented that suggested that Theological education was negative.

As a note many in TCOG go to college and study other material, I will be one as well..

Great. You and I both know that our common roots have an anti-intellectual tradition. We have both heard preachers score points with an audience by saying, "cemetery... I mean seminary... yuk, yuk, yuk." Thank God we, in COGOP, are past that now, and there are actually major initiatives introduced to promote higher education among our pastors and overseers. I simply suggested that, instead of railing against "Theology Schools" perhaps she should recognize that a lot of people (in her organization) would greatly benefit from a little Theology schooling.

[Mike Vande]

Gary, I'll tell you want I've been told more than once about entering the ministry full-time, and a lot of other things I wanted very badly to do;

"Well, if God really wants you to do it, you won't have to worry about money, He will provide it."

I mean, that's why I never moved to Hawaii to help with your TV ministry, isn't it? Well, what with the Student Loan people being on my back again, I wish I could hitchhike there and just disappear, you know, camp out on the beach and live off of the odd banana or coconut like you told me once. But the blocks get long and the rides get scarce once you get west of San Diego, and I don't know how many bananas and coconuts my diabetes will allow...

I pray that God provides for your vision beyond your understanding, and all the money and/or people you need to fulfill your vision will be provided.

[Pastor Gary]

Gary, I'll tell you want I've been told more than once about entering the ministry full-time, and a lot of other things I wanted very badly to do;

"Well, if God really wants you to do it, you won't have to worry about money, He will provide it."

I mean, that's why I never moved to Hawaii to help with your TV ministry, isn't it? Well, what with the Student Loan people being on my back again, I wish I could hitchhike there and just disappear, you know, camp out on the beach and live off of the odd banana or coconut like you told me once. But the blocks get long and the rides get scarce once you get west of San Diego, and I don't know how many bananas and coconuts my diabetes will allow...

I pray that God provides for your vision beyond your understanding, and all the money and/or people you need to fulfill your vision will be provided.

Yep, as if I have not trusted a faithful God and had him come through for me time after time.

That doesn't negate the fact... the FACT... that sometimes God just miraculously provides funds from the most unexpected sources, and sometimes He allows us to work it out the hard way, still giving him glory for it all.

And it is beyond incredulity to assert that the solo compensated pastor is some kind of Biblically correct method of church operation. An argument could be made for NO paid clergy, for MANY paid clergy and for almost any other model -- I seriously doubt if God is losing any sleep worrying about our various management paradigms.