Grieved over eating Chocolate.

[Russell Roberts]

I think Pastor Gary's point, if you are able to read it without a chip on your shoulder, is a fading passion for God and distractions that he's seeing.

DeWayne,

I understood his point perfectly. And the 'chip on my shoulder' is a desire to promote understanding based on scripture rather than the presuppositions embraced by traditional COG dogma.

[Poimen]

Perhaps, if the mention of dangers in consuming alcohol, especially in our modern culture, can cause you to become defensive you should reconsider the priority you place on this subject and the motivation to defend it so strongly that you would mock the heart-cry of a shepherd over wayward sheep.

A scripture that comes to mind, which I give for your consideration, is Romans 14:22.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

[dolfan]

I probably should have made my point differently. I sense in Pastor Gary's post the depth of his concern for those within the body of Christ. What I meant to provide was a different perspective. From my perspective, the activity of his youth doesn't reflect failure on the part of Pastor Gary at all. He may feel like it does but maybe, just maybe some of them really love God with all their hearts.
As you know from my post on another thread, I often feel like a failure too in my attempts to convey the meaning of scripture. Maybe I really shouldn't have made this post. But the appearance of failure on Pastor Gary's part (as he sees it) is often the very thing that delineates success. I was trying to provide a different perspective in terms of what we see as being sinful behavior. We MUST identify that we all approach the Bible with certain presuppositions. The statement that people need to 'justify' drinking beer PRESUPPOSES that drinking beer is sinful and there simply is no Biblical support for this position. My point in substituting 'eating chocolate' was to make the point that you could apply that sort of indictment to ANY behavior, e.g. drinking coffee, going to the beach, wearing shorts, having long hair, wearing earrings, sandles, bluejeans, dying ones hair purple, eating bacon, getting a blood transfusion, paying tithes, not washing your hands before a meal, etc.

The Church had BETTER get a grip and re-evaluate what sin really means lest we repeat the mistake of the Pharisees who loved to condemn people on the basis of certain behavior that some would label as being sinful (carrying one's mat on the Sabbath, healing a withered hand, eating with sinners, not fasting on certain days).

Alright, I can live with that perspective, too. I'd add that we need to reevaluate what life itself really means because we tie it directly to Him in whom "we live and move and have our being", who came that we "may have life and more abundantly", and because of whom we have the hope of "everlasting life". The measure of disconnect between life -- real life as God intends -- and everything else is the margin, the boundaries, of sin. That's real general and vague and feel-goody to say. But, like all things worth doing, baby steps launch it. The church had, in my view, better take baby steps toward reevaluating what life means now and forever, and what life in Jesus should be. As long as we have the fractured sense of Christian life, spiritual life, personal life, professional life, financial life, work life, social life, school life, etc., we'll never know what life is so that we can effectively see the distance between us and where we want to be in Him.

For many, many moons, Christians have wrangled with and among themselves over the significance of "one faith, one Lord, one baptism, one God and Father of all", trying to understand Paul's "one baptism" language -- is it water? Is it pentecost? What is it? Whatever else it may be, it is one life. A life that begins flesh, is born again as flesh, is begotten in Christ and commences now in the flesh and lives forever. The change, as it were, is not from flesh to something else that we don't know. We do know. It is the risen Christ whom, "when he shall appear, we shall be like him". He has already appeared at one point in history, a risen Lord and King, with a body tangible, scarred even, but having tasted death and overcome it. Nothing other than this fate awaits us. We shall be like Him. The significance of this is that we have but one life, not two lives divided into two eras of being. And, in this life, we are called to live in certain ways with specific points of view but more importantly, lived unto Jesus as both our author and sustainer and as our Purpose. If there is a cause for concern about the welfare of the body in the world today, it is our overarching refusal to reform around the Life instead of merely rearrange our little-"l" lives adorned, accessorized, you might say, with ideas such as holiness. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

[Russell Roberts]

Perhaps, if the mention of dangers in consuming alcohol, especially in our modern culture, can cause you to become defensive you should reconsider the priority you place on this subject and the motivation to defend it so strongly that you would mock the heart-cry of a shepherd over wayward sheep.

A scripture that comes to mind, which I give for your consideration, is Romans 14:22.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Poimen, it is merely coincidental that this post happens to involve drinking beer. I would have taken the same stance if the feeling for his failure was that the kids were out dying their hair purple or if the young men were getting tattoo's. Would it make sense to you if Pastor Gary felt like a failure because the girls in his youth were wearing makeup?

[Russell Roberts]

Thanks for the comment Dolfan. Jesus redefined what it 'looks' like to be Holy. The traditional view of 'holiness' within pentacostalism is totally focussed on self. This is antithetical to the message of the Gospel that our lives should be focussed on OTHERS. Obviously, this is not to the exclusion of asking whether we are pleasing in God's sight but what is the defining characteristic of a CHRISTIAN? It simply isn't whether one drinks beer, shaves his head, sits on top of a pole, gives up cigarettes, or tap dances on a tulip.

Jesus said the world would know his disciples by their LOVE. Does the world see LOVE in our actions? Honestly, people are sick and tired of being condemned by the Church for the length of their hair or whether they drink coffee. If that is what Christianity was all about, I wouldn't want to be one.

[Gerald Creasy]

FINALLY, Someone is here that can tick people off quicker than I can!

[Russell Roberts]

FINALLY, Someone is here that can tick people off quicker than I can!

Thank you brother Gerald, thank you.

[Brian]

I think Pastor Gary's point, if you are able to read it without a chip on your shoulder, is a fading passion for God and distractions that he's seeing.

DeWayne,

I understood his point perfectly. And the 'chip on my shoulder' is a desire to promote understanding based on scripture rather than the presuppositions embraced by traditional COG dogma.

No irthnvesl, what you desire (or at least what it apears like) is to mislead people with your many words(360 posts in less than a month WOW ) and personal interpretations and try to get them to believe that since mankind doesn't have the ability to be holy before there God that it somehow "doesn't matter if we are not". I think it certainly does matter what we do with the life we have been given and the people in whom we have been entrusted to lead or walk beside. To try and convey the idea that we are hopelessly unable to follow the laws of a rightious God so therefore that means to try is nothing short of fooloshness is very shortsighted my friend.

Your post, whether intended or not, was extremely disrespectful toward a man that most everyone on this board (myself included) have come to greatly admire, respect, and yes even love!

You may not be wrong in what you were trying to say but that doesnt mean that you should have said it.

[Brian]

Perhaps, if the mention of dangers in consuming alcohol, especially in our modern culture, can cause you to become defensive you should reconsider the priority you place on this subject and the motivation to defend it so strongly that you would mock the heart-cry of a shepherd over wayward sheep.

A scripture that comes to mind, which I give for your consideration, is Romans 14:22.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Poimen, it is merely coincidental that this post happens to involve drinking beer. I would have taken the same stance if the feeling for his failure was that the kids were out dying their hair purple or if the young men were getting tattoo's. Would it make sense to you if Pastor Gary felt like a failure because the girls in his youth were wearing makeup?

Again, your trying to convey that it makes no difference at all what the "what" is .....that Pastor Gary should be happy that some of his youth are moving farther away from a committment to God and committing themselves to the cares of this world. It does matter my friend. You can't possibly believe that being further from God and less committed to building His kingdom is a good thing? Something to be desired and embraised? Come on.

[Pastor Gary]

Well,

This post certainly wasn't meant to be disrespectful. I have the utmost admiration for Pastor Gary and his ministry through this board. I posted this hoping that, based on my previous dialogue with him that he wouldn't take it as being disrespectful either. If you do Pastor Gary, I apologize. No disrespect was intended.

I was. You know the words of the book well, but I am starting to wonder if you are acquainted with the author.

[Russell Roberts]

Brian, you said:

No irthnvesl, what you desire (or at least what it apears like) is to mislead people with your many words(360 posts in less than a month WOW ) and personal interpretations and try to get them to believe that since mankind doesn't have the ability to be holy before there God that it somehow "doesn't matter if we are not".

That's pretty perceptive brother. I thought I could mislead everyone on this board by my many words into believing that we shouldn't be holy but you've caught me red-handed on this one.

You also said:

I think it certainly does matter what we do with the life we have been given and the people in whom we have been entrusted to lead or walk beside. To try and convey the idea that we are hopelessly unable to follow the laws of a rightious God so therefore that means to try is nothing short of fooloshness is very shortsighted my friend.

Got me here too brother. That is the message I have conveyed. We Christians are a hopeless lot.

Your post, whether intended or not, was extremely disrespectful toward a man that most everyone on this board (myself included) have come to greatly admire, respect, and yes even love!

BUT, let there be no fear of evil outsiders like myself who don't really love Pastor Gary because he has you to look after him.

You may not be wrong in what you were trying to say but that doesnt mean that you should have said it.

Maybe. Maybe not. I already acknowledge this.

I think I liked you better when you weren't personally attacking me.

[Russell Roberts]

Well,

This post certainly wasn't meant to be disrespectful. I have the utmost admiration for Pastor Gary and his ministry through this board. I posted this hoping that, based on my previous dialogue with him that he wouldn't take it as being disrespectful either. If you do Pastor Gary, I apologize. No disrespect was intended.

I was. You know the words of the book well, but I am starting to wonder if you are acquainted with the author.

Well, I'm sorry brother. It wasn't meant to be disrespectful. First, will you forgive me? Second, will you delete this post?

[Brian]

I think I liked you better when you weren't personally attacking me.

You can't expect there not to be an emotional responce when we sometimes deal with emotional issue. Even more so when people are involved.

I am nothing special man. Pastor Gary doesn't need me to defend him any more than he needs a whole in his head. HOWEVER, I will defend a man that has been a Pastor and friend to me when most no one else was.
Even though I haven't posted near as many post as alot of others here I have been here since the begining, nearly 10 years or so. The core folks around here are more than participants on a message board, they are family. Each of us has a story. My story so happens to include a history of addiction to crack cocaine and repeated failure after failure. Pastor Gary and some of the others here on Jude2 have been true and faithful friends and brothers and sisters. I will never forget them for that. They have been there and helped more than they themselves will ever know.

My attack is not personal. My responce may have been emotionally charged but thats only because they were emotional!

May God bless you man and hopefully you can still like me in spite of myself.

[Russell Roberts]

Actually, I love you brother.

[Pastor Gary]

Well,

This post certainly wasn't meant to be disrespectful. I have the utmost admiration for Pastor Gary and his ministry through this board. I posted this hoping that, based on my previous dialogue with him that he wouldn't take it as being disrespectful either. If you do Pastor Gary, I apologize. No disrespect was intended.

I was. You know the words of the book well, but I am starting to wonder if you are acquainted with the author.

Well, I'm sorry brother. It wasn't meant to be disrespectful. First, will you forgive me? Second, will you delete this post?

Forgiven. Move on.

No, I won't delete the post. I prefer not to set a precedent that would involve removing posts that make me look bad (or good, or that matter) or involve me personally. I have said some pretty boneheaded things in my years here, and I have left them for the world to see.