I am grieved tonight

[Russell Roberts]

LOL!

Well, think about C.S. Lewis and Tolkein. They were 'clubbers' and they turned out all right huh?

What the heck is 'holiness' anyhow? What does it look like? Am I holy if I keep my hair a certain length? Quit dippin' snuff and drinking beer? Is that REALLY what makes me holy?

Please, irthnvesl, don't think what I am about to say is a personal attack against you because it is not. However, I can't help to notice that you stand alone in your conclusion that it doesn't matter what outward expression you manifest, that it plays no bearing on the reflection of your spiritual condition. I think that most people would agree that it most certainly does.

I'm not suggesting that we should live under the cloak of legalism. But there definately is A WAY and it's not any way.

God bless

Brian,

Thanks for your comment. I certainly didn't mean to convey the idea that the condition of ones heart doesn't manifest itself with outward action...it does. If we love God his work will be apparent by the way we act. If God's love dwells in us it expresses itself in love towards others. I just view things quite differently than traditional Pentacostalism. Be blessed brother Brian and thanks for the opportunity to clarify my statement.

[jessicacook]

I'm right there with ya too, PG.

[Pastor Gary]

Well, think about C.S. Lewis and Tolkein. They were 'clubbers' and they turned out all right huh?

No, they weren't.

The alcohol-soaked, sexually-saturated atmosphere in dance clubs is nothing like anything Lewis and Tolkein experienced or would have encouraged.

With all due respect to you, sir, you know the book well; you don't seem to know the author nearly as well.

I have young men who have grown up in non-Christian homes and have never heard a sermon or teaching on drinking come to my office weeping under conviction over their alcohol consumption. They didn't reach that position because of traditional Pentecostalism, but because the Holy Spirit convicted them in the quiet of their own heart.

Last week I had 3 guys show up on my doorstep late at night feeling separated from their relationship with God. They didn't show up because I called them, or because some sermon made them feel guilty -- they were under conviction from the author of the Book. They had been hanging out at raves and experimenting with recreational drugs. They started, however, with regular weekends at dance clubs, at which their friends taught them that "there's nothing wrong with having a drink -- lighten up!"

Yes, I DO believe the gateway-drug argument, because I see it in action.

[Brian]

I have young men who...... come to my office weeping ....

Last week I had 3 guys show up on my doorstep......

Pastor Gary, in the mist of your grief look how mightly God is using you to embrase the ones in whom your heart aches for!

May God bless you Gary and replace your pain with joy and comfort.

[AtlantaBishop]

Pastor Gary, Thank you for sharing your heart. I am weeping as I feel your burden and passion for the youth.
I have lived for God all my life and know nothing of the clubs, drugs, drinking, raves and all that goes along with it.
I do see that my own children are so desensitized to the Spirit of God and do not respect the things of God or the House of God or the Word of God as they should.
My oldest son is 25 - is not in church at all - drinking, smoking, living an immoral life and has done about every drug I guess you can do. He does not work but gets by on SELLING what ever he can sell to survive.
My daughter 22 has lived with several-many guys and done about every drug she could get her hands on. She just had a baby and don't know who the father is. She has a piercing in her tongue and belly button - God have mercy!
My youngest son is 21 and loves God and Church and works in ministry and serves in the house of the Lord. He goes to college full time, works full time and works at the church as much as possible. He is faithful in tithing and giving and has never given us one minutes problem.

All three of these were raised in the same house with the same values but two decided to rebel and not serve God and they do not have any kind of spirit of repentance at all about them.
Thank God for my youngest who has followed HARD after the Lord.

I don't have a clue about all this - WHY??????
My 21 year old drummer talked yesterday about church not being relevant and being outdated and boring. He gets on a tangent and goes drinking and raving and drugging and we don't see him for a month. His parents are praying and faithful people!

We have been through 6 youth ministers in 2 years and none of them exhibit much passion for the Kingdom or the things of God - its all about THEM! What gives?
I am frustrated too - but I keep planting these churches and spending every dime I can get ahold of to help people - especially the YOUTH and it seems like the more you do - the less they appreciate it.
God help us all.
Thanks again - Now - I FEEL BETTER! The weeping has stopped! LOL

[Russell Roberts]

Pastor Gary,

I never impugned your motives once. Nor did I impugne your desire to please God. This statement was uncalled for:

With all due respect to you, sir, you know the book well; you don't seem to know the author nearly as well.

[Pastor Gary]

Pastor Gary,

I never impugned your motives once. Nor did I impugne your desire to please God. This statement was uncalled for:

With all due respect to you, sir, you know the book well; you don't seem to know the author nearly as well.

[/quote

You didn't directly impugn my motives; you merely mocked my convictions and ridiculed by parody what the Holy Spirit moved me to write. I do not question, in reality, your salvation. I do question whether you fully understand the unction of the Holy Spirit when He convicts people of sins not specifically enumerated in a list.

You are smart. Very smart. But you have a blind spot in the issue of drinking. I don't care, personally, if you have a beer in the backyard. You attempt, however, to extrapolate that freedom into a broad brush acceptance that makes that equivalent to the debauchery common in dance clubs.

The girls in dance clubs dress, I am sorry to be so blunt, like hookers. There's a lot -- a LOT -- of drug use and drug exchanging in clubs. (One of the guys at my church is part of the anti-drug unit and tells stories that amaze me.) The play list is not exactly music that is uplifting and Christ-exalting... mush of it is sexually suggestive and sets the mood/tone for seduction. Drunkenness in clubs is pandemic and encouraged.

If you think that is a Christian atmosphere, and is something that is value neutral, we are not following the same Spirit, brother.

[Russell Roberts]

Let me ask you something brother Gary. Here is a sentence from your post.

I know: there are those among us here on this board who will think this rant is ridiculous, and write magnificent justifications of the consumption of alcohol. I have seen the alleged scriptural justifications,

Do you deny that the presumption of this section of what you wrote is that any consumption of alcohol is sinful behavior?

Using the word 'justify' or 'justification' in this context is to impugne the motives of anyone who provides a scriptural basis for their belief if they differ from your opinion. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with clubbing. Knowing my stance on moderate consumption of alcohol, you have, in that sentence judged my motives as being impure rather than giving me the benefit of the doubt that this is a conclusion I have drawn from scripture (or anyone else who disagrees with you on this issue).

One doesn't need to 'justify' behavior that isn't sinful. That was the reason for using the example of 'eating chocolate' in my post. The activity is morally neutral. My purpose was to point out the fact that one doesn't need to 'justify' eating chocolate - it isn't sinful behavior. At its heart, this was the point of my post. Not to be disrespectful but to challenge the presumption that something not clearly indicated as sin doesn't need justification.

What we agree on is that drunkennes is sinful. What we don't seem to agree on is that moderate consumption of alcohol is not NECESSARILY sinful. I have never once believed that you didn't come by your beliefs honestly. I would hope that you would give me the same benefit of the doubt...but it doesn't seem that you are.

If the basis of your guilt is something that you perceive to be sinful but may not actually be sinful, your guilt is misplaced. Now, however awkwardly I might have portrayed this fact in my post, my intentions were not to be disrespectful. I was presenting a paradigm that might lead you to conclude that at least some of your guilt might be misplaced.

[Full Quiver]

Gary, I agree with you. Though I and everyone else in God's kingdom have liberty in the Spirit that IS NOT a license to sin or work our way towards sin. There is no condemnation in Christ yet sin is sin. It must be repented of, preached about and against, and we MUST live above it through Christ. The Word and the Spirit still agree and they together will penetrate the lives of all that are interacted by them.

Legalism doesn't work but neither does liberalism. We must preach the truth and not a watered down version. We are getting where we avoid controversial topics in the pulpit. This will not do fallen mankind any good. If the Word is against it then we must be also. The OT prophets were too often hated and killed yet today we preachers want to be loved and accepted all the time. Think about it!

[Pastor Gary]

Let me ask you something brother Gary. Here is a sentence from your post.

I know: there are those among us here on this board who will think this rant is ridiculous, and write magnificent justifications of the consumption of alcohol. I have seen the alleged scriptural justifications,

Do you deny that the presumption of this section of what you wrote is that any consumption of alcohol is sinful behavior?

Yes.

[Russell Roberts]

Let me ask you something brother Gary. Here is a sentence from your post.

I know: there are those among us here on this board who will think this rant is ridiculous, and write magnificent justifications of the consumption of alcohol. I have seen the alleged scriptural justifications,

Do you deny that the presumption of this section of what you wrote is that any consumption of alcohol is sinful behavior?

Yes.

Why then, would you use the word 'justify'? Would you use the same word to describe someones explanation of a behavior you believed to be morally neutral? Or how about your use of the word 'alleged justifications'. Does this not reflect a belief that those who believe moderate alcohol consumption are being disingenous?

Would you honestly state that some on this board would write mangificent justifications to eat chocolate? Or would you say that arguments in favor of eating chocolate were 'alleged justifications'?

[Pastor Gary]

Let me ask you something brother Gary. Here is a sentence from your post.

I know: there are those among us here on this board who will think this rant is ridiculous, and write magnificent justifications of the consumption of alcohol. I have seen the alleged scriptural justifications,

Do you deny that the presumption of this section of what you wrote is that any consumption of alcohol is sinful behavior?

Yes.

Why then, would you use the word 'justify'? Would you use the same word to describe someones explanation of a behavior you believed to be morally neutral? Or how about your use of the word 'alleged justifications'. Does this not reflect a belief that those who believe moderate alcohol consumption are being disingenous?

Would you honestly state that some on this board would write mangificent justifications to eat chocolate? Or would you say that arguments in favor of eating chocolate were 'alleged justifications'?

You are obsessed with the subject of alcohol. Why? I am not.

[Russell Roberts]

Pastor Gary, I am not obsessed with alcohol. You avoided my question though.

[scooter]

Reminds me of the old quote "You knew I was a snake when you picked me up"

[dolfan]

Irthnvesl, I didn't read PG's initial post the way you read it at all. The man was simply saying that he's not catering to any arguments/debates/philosophical discussions about whether alcohol is permissible for a believer. Instead, in lieu of that, and in its place within his very soul is a concern for the welfare of people, specifically those he pastors and those loved by those he pastors. In light of that, why should he run down the rabbit trail of temperance vs. abstinence? His real concern is being able to reach the hearts and minds of those people he's, frankly, in fear for their lives. His concern is that he's not able to do that when he's faced with this whole culture of gratification and the particular culture of raves. It's an uphill battle, one that seems insurmountable, and one that I'm deeply concerned about as it shapes the world I raise my daughter in. One day soon, I won't be raising her anymore. She'll be wholly at the mercy of her own decisions. I pray that hers will be wise and circumspect; but when I look around her, I see no reason to expect that she'll be any different from the rest of this world. So, yeah, although I don't agree on the finer points of argument about the use of alcohol with many here, I really don't care about that argument. The main thing is my daughter's welfare. If I could beat good choices into her, I'd do it. If I could beg them into her, I'd do it. As it stands, all I can do is try to walk wisely about it and tell her the truth. That may not be enough, frankly. That's painful to admit, and if I don't manage to make that reality convincing to her in ways that are less painful, less destructive than the lifestyle will, then I will feel like a failure. I just don't see the point in trying to steer this back over into the more academic debate about alcohol.

Let me put it another way in a style you may find familiar:

The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. He suggests that I stay away from raves by having my pastor stand behind a podium and telling me how dangerous it is. He restores my faith by reminding me that I have the liberty to choose to drink. He lets me lie down with dogs and get up with fleas, and reassures me that it's okay. He pats me on the head and tells me of a kingdom that, while I think it is nice, is not the one I want to live in right now. So, he lets me go, smiling. When I slip off the abyss of sexual destruction and substance abuse, He visits me in rehab. My cup is running over. Surely good things will happen the rest of my life and I'll dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Now, I ask you a question: Would you want your pastor, your shepherd, to do this? Or, would you rather have Pastor Gary travail in his soul in prayer for you, warn you of the certainty of irreversible consequences, and tell you of a better way?