I am grieved tonight

[Pastor Gary]

Pastor Gary, I am not obsessed with alcohol. You avoided my question though.

Then why did you immediately personalize a post that I made, in which I did not mention you, and jump in to disparage my heart-felt conviction by writing a parody of my words that attempted to make eating chocolate the moral equivalent of --- not drinking (my post was not just about drinking) --- but the dance club environment. Why make that quantum leap if you didn't infer that your ox was being gored?

Even if you enjoy a beer or two, do you really (REALLY?) think that to warn people against the perils of the party lifestyle and the dangers of moral license is the same as moralistic prohibitions against jewelry and watching MTV? (REALLY?)

The great irony here is that I have spent my life being disrespected as a liberal for defending young people on matters I believed to be non-essential to salvation, and then, when I see young people on a slippery slope toward lasciviousness and excess, I find myself facing someone who wants to debate why it's okay to have a drink.

Find a post here, or anywhere, in which I have ever taken the position that the moderate consumption of alcohol is punishable by eternity in hell. Find it and link it, and you can argue with me.

That doesn't mean, however, that alcohol is more positive than negative. For every person you can point to whose life has been enhanced by the glories of fermentation, I can take you to 100... maybe 1,000, whose lives, careers, marriages, and families have been destroyed by alcoholic excess. Not one of them planned it that way. Nobody was asked at age 5 what they wanted to be when they grow up and answered, "I want to be a drunk!" It just turns out that way because, whether you acknowledge it or not, there's a spiritual component at work that can't be quantified by "how much is too much" and the precise calculation of blood alcohol levels. To ignore that, or deny it, is simply laughable, and is belied by the millions upon millions of stories of ruined lives. When I taught in prison, 100% of the guys in my classes attributed the beginning of their decline into livs of crime to alcohol.

Tell you what; you be alcohol's defense attorney, and cite all the passages that make it okay or even desirable, and I'll continue to warn people that it is mostly a trap that is best avoided. When we both stand before God, which strategy is more likely to bring the most people with each of us?

[Dr. Ron]

I have already posted and I won't reguritate my previous words....nor will I recant them.....

But I will challenge some statements that are being made.....which are the real issue that PG and many of us are dealing with.....

To say the "Loving Christ causes the world to lose it's appeal", is bordering on the absurd. That is the way we used to teach Santification......"when you REALLY get sanctified, you will lose the desire for sin........stupid! No person in their right mind would say that and know in their heart it is not true.

What might change is the appeal something one Once did and doesn't have the desire to do that any longer. I can buy that. But to say that knowing Christ is like a magic bullit that causes us to no longer see the appeal of certain things in the world.

I mentioned "high tech" stuff earlier. I once had a pastor who got so involved in his computer that he spent 9 hours sitting at his desk playing a game......Did knowing Christ cause the "appeal" to be gone? Nope.

Again, let me digress, I am certainly aware of the feelings PG has. I feel so troubled at times about those same issues.....but I am determined to try to preach Christ as the center of our lives and service as a part of the Christian experience.

I wish our kids didn't do a lot of what they do....I wish the kids in my generation wouldn't have made babies in the back seat of the chevy. Different day.....same devil......but some of those illigitament parents grew up to become preachers and teachers among us .....and some of those children are Godly and solid citizens .

I believe that while I feel like a failure....the God I preach NEVER fails....and I will continue to sow the seeds.....God has promised me a harves.!!!!!!

Whew, I feel those goose bumps........

[Pastor Gary]

I have already posted and I won't reguritate my previous words....nor will I recant them.....

Yeah, yeah, yeah...
So you're going to post a blurb in your bulletin at Cedar Ridge this week agreeing with Irthenvsl and telling all the kids at the ROCK HOUSE it's not an issue of holiness if they drink and go clubbing?

No, I didn't think so.

[Russell Roberts]

Irthnvesl, I didn't read PG's initial post the way you read it at all. The man was simply saying that he's not catering to any arguments/debates/philosophical discussions about whether alcohol is permissible for a believer. Instead, in lieu of that, and in its place within his very soul is a concern for the welfare of people, specifically those he pastors and those loved by those he pastors. In light of that, why should he run down the rabbit trail of temperance vs. abstinence? His real concern is being able to reach the hearts and minds of those people he's, frankly, in fear for their lives. His concern is that he's not able to do that when he's faced with this whole culture of gratification and the particular culture of raves. It's an uphill battle, one that seems insurmountable, and one that I'm deeply concerned about as it shapes the world I raise my daughter in. One day soon, I won't be raising her anymore. She'll be wholly at the mercy of her own decisions. I pray that hers will be wise and circumspect; but when I look around her, I see no reason to expect that she'll be any different from the rest of this world. So, yeah, although I don't agree on the finer points of argument about the use of alcohol with many here, I really don't care about that argument. The main thing is my daughter's welfare. If I could beat good choices into her, I'd do it. If I could beg them into her, I'd do it. As it stands, all I can do is try to walk wisely about it and tell her the truth. That may not be enough, frankly. That's painful to admit, and if I don't manage to make that reality convincing to her in ways that are less painful, less destructive than the lifestyle will, then I will feel like a failure. I just don't see the point in trying to steer this back over into the more academic debate about alcohol.

Brother Dolfan,

To characterize this as an argument about alcohol is a red herring. It isn't about alcohol at all. It is about how the Church defines holiness. Did Jesus come to bring the world a new ethical standard? The Jews already had a pretty high ethical standard. I say that this isn't the message Jesus came to bring. The focus on 'holiness' is, for the most part, egocentric. If places ME in the center of the universe.

I don't deny that the Holy Spirit brings forth holy behavior. I just disagree with what Pentacostalism has historically defined as 'holy' behavior. I say LOVE GOD AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR! This, along with faith, should be what defines us as God's people. The Torah looked forward to a people who would love God with all their heart. Read Deuteronomy 30 tonight.

It didn't look forward to a people who would 'not drink beer' or 'not wear long hair' or 'not get a tattoo' or anything else that Penacostalism sees as holy. This has been a HUGE distraction to the Church and has resulted in the kind of judgmentalism that I think is repulsive to Jesus Christ and an attitude that frankly characterized the Pharisees not Jesus and his disciples.

THEY were the ones being judged harshly - Jesus disciples. Why? Because they ate with 'unclean hands' or gathered grain on the Sabbath. Jesus was criticized for 'eating and drinking' still John was accused of having a demon because he refused to be conformed to others expectations of what they considered to be 'holy'.

[Pastor Gary]

It didn't look forward to a people who would 'not drink beer' or 'not wear long hair' or 'not get a tattoo' or anything else that Penacostalism sees as holy.

Speaking of red herrings: I didn't write the original post in any way mentioning drinking beer -- and have clearly pointed that out and been conveniently ignored. The entire unholy atmosphere of the dance club environment was the topic of my post.

And you have NEVER heard me make a pentecostal case against hair, tats, or any number of other clothes-line holiness issues. I resent the implication by association of this post.

[Russell Roberts]

Pastor Gary, you said this:

Find a post here, or anywhere, in which I have ever taken the position that the moderate consumption of alcohol is punishable by eternity in hell.

I never even suspected that you believed that. The question is this: Do you believe that the moderate consumption of alcohol is sinful? If not, why would you use the word 'justify' to describe the arguments presented by those who believe it is not necessarily sinful? This impugnes the motives of those who believe it is not NECESSARILY sinful.

This could apply to anything, not just alcohol.

[dolfan]

Brother Dolfan,

To characterize this as an argument about alcohol is a red herring. It isn't about alcohol at all. It is about how the Church defines holiness. Did Jesus come to bring the world a new ethical standard? The Jews already had a pretty high ethical standard. I say that this isn't the message Jesus came to bring. The focus on 'holiness' is, for the most part, egocentric. If places ME in the center of the universe.

I don't deny that the Holy Spirit brings forth holy behavior. I just disagree with what Pentacostalism has historically defined as 'holy' behavior. I say LOVE GOD AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR! This, along with faith, should be what defines us as God's people. The Torah looked forward to a people who would love God with all their heart. Read Deuteronomy 30 tonight.

It didn't look forward to a people who would 'not drink beer' or 'not wear long hair' or 'not get a tattoo' or anything else that Penacostalism sees as holy. This has been a HUGE distraction to the Church and has resulted in the kind of judgmentalism that I think is repulsive to Jesus Christ and an attitude that frankly characterized the Pharisees not Jesus and his disciples.

THEY were the ones being judged harshly - Jesus disciples. Why? Because they ate with 'unclean hands' or gathered grain on the Sabbath. Jesus was criticized for 'eating and drinking' still John was accused of having a demon because he refused to be conformed to others expectations of what they considered to be 'holy'.

Let me ask this, then. Is it holy to rescue someone from all but certain doom? Is it holy to offer another way to fulfillment than self-degradation? Isn't it holy to point back to the life of Jesus Himself as the model of living a significant life?? Is it unholy or egocentric to stop and consider God's righteousness (and I mean that as you understand it -- the identity as being part of God's people, His family) --- isn't it holy to point to the biblical expression of that righteousness stated in 1 Peter 1???? Doesn't that passage express clearly your own stated understanding that God's righteousness is here, He's vindicated His own covenant to have a people of faith, and that that IS the message? Isn't this what Peter wrote in this chapter?? And, didn't he himself urge in the practical living of that message that,

If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart,

????

Isn't the end of that sober judgment, that fearful, tender walk --- isn't the end of it a sincere love of one another??? Isn't Pastor Gary's concern, then, borne out to the very point you make and not marking off a list of don'ts that you're aiming your frustrations at? Isn't THAT really the red herring here?

[dolfan]

Pastor Gary, you said this:

Find a post here, or anywhere, in which I have ever taken the position that the moderate consumption of alcohol is punishable by eternity in hell.

I never even suspected that you believed that. The question is this: Do you believe that the moderate consumption of alcohol is sinful? If not, why would you use the word 'justify' to describe the arguments presented by those who believe it is not necessarily sinful? This impugnes the motives of those who believe it is not NECESSARILY sinful.

This could apply to anything, not just alcohol.

Here's what he said:

I know: there are those among us here on this board who will think this rant is ridiculous, and write magnificent justifications of the consumption of alcohol. I have seen the alleged scriptural justifications, and I am not interested in clever debate over them.

He never said justify it in the face of arguments that it isn't necessarily sinful. He said justifications of the consumption of alcohol, as in not only is it not sinful, but it is convenient and good and useful. Now, maybe you can find some good uses. Great. Still, you've missed his point. He never engaged that argument, that's why he said "I am not interested in clever debate". Fact is, scripture doesn't "justify" drinking alcohol. It refers to its use as normal in the world, and warns against excesses and all the bad stuff that can happen if you use it poorly. Well, I don't think we need to look further than our cemetaries and jailhouses to figure out those consequences. But, hey, what's a pastor to do? Oh, yeah .... visit. I've done that in many roles, but mostly as an attorney. And, I can tell you, you can't put Humpty back together again. And, pastors are nothing if not anti-Humpty-falling. Or, folks can keep doing what they do and see my smiling face on the other side of the glass. I'm the one going home to sleep in my own bed and use my own private restroom and eat my wife's good cooking. He's the one going back to his cell where he uses a stainless steel toilet that's out there for everyone to watch and catcall while he's doing business. And, then to sit and pass time sitting while his family is doing the same things that got him there. Now, THAT'S holy.

[Russell Roberts]

Dolfan,

I didn't have time to thoroughly read your posts but I did breeze through them quicky as I am in a hurry. If we are to convey a more biblical worldview we would teach the youth that for some, moderate alcohol consumption is not sinful. For others, it might be.

This avoids the gnostic tendencies of the Church. Teach the kids not to judge others whose liberty allows moderate consumption of alcohol. And teach those who partake not to despise those who refrain. Servants of Jesus Christ have a judge...and he will judge everyone according to their works.

Certainly youth should be warned of the dangers of over-indulging. But they should also be informed that if it doesn't bother their conscience that there is nothing wrong with a few beers and also warned not to judge one another on the basis of food and drink. THIS is the biblical teaching. A simple blanket condemnation of alcohol consumption is NOT in accordance with scripture.

I think this applies to a lot of PREFERENCES such as hair length, tats, earrings, dress, etc.

[Russell Roberts]

Pastor Gary, I am not obsessed with alcohol. You avoided my question though.

Then why did you immediately personalize a post that I made, in which I did not mention you, and jump in to disparage my heart-felt conviction by writing a parody of my words that attempted to make eating chocolate the moral equivalent of --- not drinking (my post was not just about drinking) --- but the dance club environment. Why make that quantum leap if you didn't infer that your ox was being gored?

Even if you enjoy a beer or two, do you really (REALLY?) think that to warn people against the perils of the party lifestyle and the dangers of moral license is the same as moralistic prohibitions against jewelry and watching MTV? (REALLY?)

The great irony here is that I have spent my life being disrespected as a liberal for defending young people on matters I believed to be non-essential to salvation, and then, when I see young people on a slippery slope toward lasciviousness and excess, I find myself facing someone who wants to debate why it's okay to have a drink.

Find a post here, or anywhere, in which I have ever taken the position that the moderate consumption of alcohol is punishable by eternity in hell. Find it and link it, and you can argue with me.

That doesn't mean, however, that alcohol is more positive than negative. For every person you can point to whose life has been enhanced by the glories of fermentation, I can take you to 100... maybe 1,000, whose lives, careers, marriages, and families have been destroyed by alcoholic excess. Not one of them planned it that way. Nobody was asked at age 5 what they wanted to be when they grow up and answered, "I want to be a drunk!" It just turns out that way because, whether you acknowledge it or not, there's a spiritual component at work that can't be quantified by "how much is too much" and the precise calculation of blood alcohol levels. To ignore that, or deny it, is simply laughable, and is belied by the millions upon millions of stories of ruined lives. When I taught in prison, 100% of the guys in my classes attributed the beginning of their decline into livs of crime to alcohol.

Tell you what; you be alcohol's defense attorney, and cite all the passages that make it okay or even desirable, and I'll continue to warn people that it is mostly a trap that is best avoided. When we both stand before God, which strategy is more likely to bring the most people with each of us?

Brother Gary, I hope you know I love you even when we disagree. I am amused at your response. You once accused me of not answering your questions directly. I corrected my mistake and modified my post to provide a direct answer. I hope you find it in your heart to do the same.

[Russell Roberts]

Dolfan, you said:

Fact is, scripture doesn't "justify" drinking alcohol. It refers to its use as normal in the world, and warns against excesses and all the bad stuff that can happen if you use it poorly.

My point EXACTLY. We are in agreement.

Well, I don't think we need to look further than our cemetaries and jailhouses to figure out those consequences. But, hey, what's a pastor to do? Oh, yeah .... visit. I've done that in many roles, but mostly as an attorney. And, I can tell you, you can't put Humpty back together again. And, pastors are nothing if not anti-Humpty-falling. Or, folks can keep doing what they do and see my smiling face on the other side of the glass. I'm the one going home to sleep in my own bed and use my own private restroom and eat my wife's good cooking. He's the one going back to his cell where he uses a stainless steel toilet that's out there for everyone to watch and catcall while he's doing business. And, then to sit and pass time sitting while his family is doing the same things that got him there. Now, THAT'S holy.

I agree with this too.

[Pastor Gary]

The question is this: Do you believe that the moderate consumption of alcohol is sinful?

I think the moderate consumption of alcohol has been, for untold multitudes, a gateway practice that has desensitized them, lowered their inhibitions, altered their judgment, and led to their downfall. You can call it sin or just industrial strength stupid -- the label is not worth fighting over. I maintain, and I think for good, solid, logical reasons, that there is FAR more reason to encourage people to abstain than to convince them there's no reason to.

Young people, in particular, have very poor judgment. They drive too fast, take lots of risks, believe they are 10-feet-tall and bullet-proof, and don't need the additional buzz of moderate alcohol consumption coursing through their veins to make them behave even stupider.

If you were the pastor who had to sit with the young girl when she told her parents she was pregnant (buzzed at a party) or sat in court with the kid facing a DUI, you might moderate your views. Moderate to you and moderate to a 22 year old out dancing is not close to the same.

[Russell Roberts]

Pastor Gary, you said:

Speaking of red herrings: I didn't write the original post in any way mentioning drinking beer -- and have clearly pointed that out and been conveniently ignored. The entire unholy atmosphere of the dance club environment was the topic of my post.

No, you didn't mention beer specifically, just alcohol. I stand corrected. But my point applies to fuzzy navels and mudslides too.

You also said...

And you have NEVER heard me make a pentecostal case against hair, tats, or any number of other clothes-line holiness issues. I resent the implication by association of this post

Brother, I don't think I accused you of being against tats, etc. These were just examples of other types of behavior that are condemned by some Christians. I didn't think you were against any of the items in the list.

My position is that a balanced, scriptural approach would include not only warnings against over-indulgence but warning against judging those whose consciences gave them liberty to partake. What will you do when someone mentions that Jesus drank wine?

Wouldn't it be better just to teach straight from Romans 14? I am just advocating that you teach what is taught in scripture brother. You could ignore scriptures that speak favorably of wine but then, why not just cover ALL the scriptures in depth. How will you warn the youth not to judge someone's liberty if you simply issue a blanket condemnation?

Paul told the Romans that he had declared unto them the whole counsel of God. So yes, warn them about the ills of over-indulging. But please, teach them the rest of the story.

We could rail against sex on the same basis of all the bad stuff that results from its abuse. But why not also tell them how beautiful it can be in the proper context? In this respect, Augustine sure didn't do the Church any favors.

I think we have to be ardent in our opposition of a gnostic Christianity.

[Russell Roberts]

The question is this: Do you believe that the moderate consumption of alcohol is sinful?

I think the moderate consumption of alcohol has been, for untold multitudes, a gateway practice that has desensitized them, lowered their inhibitions, altered their judgment, and led to their downfall. You can call it sin or just industrial strength stupid -- the label is not worth fighting over. I maintain, and I think for good, solid, logical reasons, that there is FAR more reason to encourage people to abstain than to convince them there's no reason to.

Young people, in particular, have very poor judgment. They drive too fast, take lots of risks, believe they are 10-feet-tall and bullet-proof, and don't need the additional buzz of moderate alcohol consumption coursing through their veins to make them behave even stupider.

If you were the pastor who had to sit with the young girl when she told her parents she was pregnant (buzzed at a party) or sat in court with the kid facing a DUI, you might moderate your views. Moderate to you and moderate to a 22 year old out dancing is not close to the same.

I wonder though, how many untold millions of Christians who drank moderately have changed the world. Brother, again, I am simply encouraging you to balance your condemnation with by teaching ALL of what scripture has to say on the subject. As for me, I LOVE YOU BROTHER. But you still haven't given me a direct answer to my question.

[Pastor Gary]

What will you do when someone mentions that Jesus drank wine?

Since I know you have them catalogued please list all the verses of scripture in which Jesus is recorded drinking wine.