I am grieved tonight

[Pastor Gary]

While it might not always be 'constructive' neither are a lot of things. But they shouldn't be condemned on that basis.

"Good morning, church. This morning I feel compelled to warn you about something the Spirit has put upon my heart. I am concerned about the stability of marriages and families in our congregation, and I want to tell you that one of the danger zones I see, one the areas of thin ice upon which some of you are skating, is forming too close of friendships with members of the opposite sex... the current term is "office wives." Starting to confide in someone not your spouse, sharing your hopes and dreams and disappointments with them is a slippery slope, and I see red flags of danger popping up all around some of you.

However: under the Spiritual Fairness Doctrine, I am required to balance that warning with this statement -- "While it might not always be 'constructive' neither are a lot of things. But they shouldn't be condemned on that basis." After all, I am not supposed to classify as 'sinful' behavior that is not condemned in scripture, and since there seems to be no specific spiritual admonition against close confidences with members of the opposite sex, the fact that I have witnessed such behavior destroy a thousand good marriages is of no weight, so... never mind, I guess.

Let's stand and be dismissed. Sorry to have wasted your morning."

Yeah... that'll preach.

[Pastor Gary]

But I will challenge some statements that are being made.....which are the real issue that PG and many of us are dealing with.....

To say the "Loving Christ causes the world to lose it's appeal", is bordering on the absurd. That is the way we used to teach Santification......"when you REALLY get sanctified, you will lose the desire for sin........stupid! No person in their right mind would say that and know in their heart it is not true.

What might change is the appeal something one Once did and doesn't have the desire to do that any longer. I can buy that. But to say that knowing Christ is like a magic bullit that causes us to no longer see the appeal of certain things in the world.

Ron, was there a point in your walk, as I can assure you there has been in mine, at which the compulsion to sin, the ruling power of sin was broken in your life? If not, I am sorry for you.

That doesn't mean I don't still face temptations to sin, and it doesn't mean I never have struggles with those temptations. But in my deep dark past sin held sway over me to the extent that I lost every battle with temptation, and now God wins for me.

Is that old time Sanctification? I guess so. It sure helps.

[Dr. Ron]

Pastor Gary,

The fact is , I became a Christian at 6 was sanctified and filled with the HG ar 7. I grew up in ministry. I had no child hood as others did. I was always somewhere working in ministry. I had been told that once I was sanctified I would not have a desire for sin....that the "old man" was dead.

I accepted my call to preach at 16 and began a long and horrific journey trying to get equilibrium in my life. I would preach a revival and get home and go to bed with prayer on my lips. I would wake up in the middle of the night with raging hormones. I prayed fervently that God would take that away from me until I could get old enough to marry. I didn't want to displease God. But it was a horrible battle.....one I released my sons from.

No one talked with me about the "balance" of God's grace ....just that if I had "evil" thoughts I was not "truely sanctified". I carried guilt, pain, and felt generally like God's biggest failure. I finally had peace when I got married and was able to put all that to rest.

I cannot tell you that I ever had the experience that you describe. I didn't drink , smoke, cuss, dip, chew, go to ball games. bowling alleys....movies( well once, but I prayed through). I lived as "sinless" as I could. But I can't tell you that I wasn't tempted. So in that case I guess we are about the same. You are tempted.....I am tempted. And sanctification won't ever change that with anyone.

What I am saying is that we have to preach the whole thing......rightly dividing ( God help us to understand that) the Word. It may mean challenging our own backgrounds and beliefs. When I did that I certainly didn't like EVERYTHING I believed. I knew I had it all wrong. Notice I said I.

That being said.......don't beat yourself up (coming from me that's a pretty good laugh) do the best you can. You can't live this for anyone but yourself.

I could say more but it would become a blog.

[dalebert]

As i was reading ur post Ron...I saw myself ....thank God his grace is awesome!!

[Pastor Gary]

I cannot tell you that I ever had the experience that you describe.

How sad.

I asked you if there was "a point in your walk at which the compulsion to sin, the ruling power of sin was broken in your life?" and your answer is no?

You don't believe that the ruling power of sin is ever broken in the life of a believer? I don't mean sinless perfection, and you know it.

Lay two magnets on a table. Place a steel ball bearing on the table. If it gets closer to magnet "A" it gets pulled that way. Move it far enough away, and magnet "B" exerts a stronger pull and the power of "A" no longer controls the direction of attraction. It is still there... still magnetic... still doing exactly what it was before, only now, as the steel moves away from it instead of toward it, its effects are lessened.

[Dr. Ron]

Sorry Gary. I am sure I must be a disappointment to you. But I am being truthful to you when I say "I don't recall a time certain". I was raised on all the dos and don'ts and actually believed them and tried to live by them. It was an incredibly difficult burden. It was a long time before I discovered Grace. I am sorry for that.

Sometimes I wish I could relate to what you seem to know as a time certain when the cloud of gullt left and grace abounded. It must have happened at some point because I do enjoy the grace of which you speak. I have often thought that I should have gone out in sin....so I would have a better testimony....but I think the greater testimony is that His grace has always kept me.....it is abundant like that you know.....

At any rate, you and I both agree ....may be a little semantic thing....but I know whom I have believed..!!!!!

[Kenya]

I don't recall a "specific" time either. Sometimes I feel robbed in that area. I had the perfect childhood, the perfect home and never understood grace in my childhood and teen years because I just didn't do that many things wrong. My last spanking was at the age of 3 and I never got in trouble. I was an obedient child and I loved God. It took a bigtime mess-up for me in my 20s to even understand what grace meant. But I don't think I turned my back totally on God then - I just missed the mark and had to repent. But at least I finally understood grace and now each day I understand more and more how NOT perfect I am. I am still tempted by the same things I was as a kid and teen - i just realize now that things like pride and anger are a bigger problem than what I realized when I was younger and I have to die daily to those things.

[Jennifer Smith]

After reading Pastor Gary's post, I had a talk with my ten year old about going to the school dance. The Lord gave me a few scriptures to share with him. The one that came to mind first was,

"How can a young man keep his way pure? By taking heed according to Your Word."

What does the Word say that we should heed? We should be alert, watchful, because the enemy prowls around like a roaring lion, "seeking whom he may devour."

I shared this, and one more with him, "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind." My son may or may not yet understand, because "everyone goes" to the dance. But sometimes there is a cost, a difference we must show in us, in order to live for Jesus. My son always considers what is shared with him and tries to have a right attitude, I am grateful for that. I am thankful that God is waking the church to pray. I can see the Lord working in my family and in a few people around me and I am thankful that He answers prayers and I know that He is at work.

Pastor Gary, I heard your heart, and I believe the problem you shared is somewhat universal... but if we focus on the Lord and cry out to Him in prayer, He is gracious and brings dramatic victory and joy.

[Russell Roberts]

After reading Pastor Gary's post, I had a talk with my ten year old about going to the school dance. The Lord gave me a few scriptures to share with him. The one that came to mind first was,

"How can a young man keep his way pure? By taking heed according to Your Word."

What does the Word say that we should heed? We should be alert, watchful, because the enemy prowls around like a roaring lion, "seeking whom he may devour."

I shared this, and one more with him, "Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind." My son may or may not yet understand, because "everyone goes" to the dance. But sometimes there is a cost, a difference we must show in us, in order to live for Jesus. My son always considers what is shared with him and tries to have a right attitude, I am grateful for that. I am thankful that God is waking the church to pray. I can see the Lord working in my family and in a few people around me and I am thankful that He answers prayers and I know that He is at work.

Pastor Gary, I heard your heart, and I believe the problem you shared is somewhat universal... but if we focus on the Lord and cry out to Him in prayer, He is gracious and brings dramatic victory and joy.

I coudn't really determine from your post if you advised your ten year old son to go to the dance or to not go to the dance. If you advised him to NOT go to the dance, I think that is a mistake and a decision you will live to regret. But you're his mom.

[Pastor Gary]

After reading Pastor Gary's post, I had a talk with my ten year old about going to the school dance.

I hope we're on the same page here, Jennifer.
I don't have any issue with dancing, at all. Dancing is a celebration, an expression of joy, good cardio exercise, social, etc.

My issue with the clubbing thing has more to do with:
• The hyper-sexualized environment. There's a weekly newspaper insert that prints lots of photos from the local club scene, and, honestly, some of the girls are dressed in less clothing than I see at the beaches here.
• The KIND of music being played. I am not a "only-listen-to-Christian-music" guy; I have very eclectic tastes and listen to a lot of genres of music myself. But dance club music is often suggestive, sexually explicit and pornographic.
• The alcohol-soaked culture. This is not a wine and cheese tasting... we're talking about the encouragement of lowered inhibitions, drunkenness and debauchery.
• The KIND of dancing. There's just way more grinding of intimate body parts, sexual acting-out, and simulated sex acts in club dancing than I am comfortable with.

A chaperoned, controlled environment school dance? Wouldn't bother me in the least. We have dancing at wedding receptions here, and everybody joins in. There was music and dancing at my son's wedding and I danced with my daughter-in-law.

It is not socializing and dancing I am concerned over, at all.

[Russell Roberts]

Brother Gary,

Thanks for that clarification.

[pastorables]

If you advised him to NOT go to the dance, I think that is a mistake and a decision you will live to regret. But you're his mom..

With all due respect, I think your opinion without understanding all the facts in this specific situation is presumptuous. Having interacted with Jennifer for a few years now, I assure you she isn't a novice.

God bless,
pa

[Russell Roberts]

Pastorables, I changed my post. Would you do me a favor and delete the quote?

[Jennifer Smith]

After reading Pastor Gary's post, I had a talk with my ten year old about going to the school dance.

I hope we're on the same page here, Jennifer.
I don't have any issue with dancing, at all. Dancing is a celebration, an expression of joy, good cardio exercise, social, etc.

My issue with the clubbing thing has more to do with:
• The hyper-sexualized environment. There's a weekly newspaper insert that prints lots of photos from the local club scene, and, honestly, some of the girls are dressed in less clothing than I see at the beaches here.
• The KIND of music being played. I am not a "only-listen-to-Christian-music" guy; I have very eclectic tastes and listen to a lot of genres of music myself. But dance club music is often suggestive, sexually explicit and pornographic.
• The alcohol-soaked culture. This is not a wine and cheese tasting... we're talking about the encouragement of lowered inhibitions, drunkenness and debauchery.
• The KIND of dancing. There's just way more grinding of intimate body parts, sexual acting-out, and simulated sex acts in club dancing than I am comfortable with.

A chaperoned, controlled environment school dance? Wouldn't bother me in the least. We have dancing at wedding receptions here, and everybody joins in. There was music and dancing at my son's wedding and I danced with my daughter-in-law.

It is not socializing and dancing I am concerned over, at all.

The type of music are they playing at the school dance... is really some of the same kinds. Suggestive dancing, yes, on a grade school level... Chaperones? Well, not CoG ones...!
This is my own conviction, something I have prayed about, so don't feel responsible... but I did get the message of your post. We didn't get to the problem of kids seeing no problem with "bigger" sins, without allowing and making some smaller compromises along the way. We told them, in essence, by our actions that being a Christian is almost the same, or just slightly better than, the standard(s) of the world. When we say one thing is okay when it is really a compromise, they see no difference between that and the "bigger" (to us) things. Young children, especially, see black and white. I love having alternatives-
I think cats posted that their church has line dancing and provides an alternative. Those things are usually a lot more fun, and there is no reason to feel guilty. The next time there is a dance at school, my son will be able to have a sleepover, or another fun alternative.

To tell a short story: when we first moved to Indiana, it was my kids' first real experience with public school, and my daughter wanted to go to the dance. I finally let her go one time, to see what it was like. She said it was all right and no big deal. When the next one came around, I forgot it was coming around, but for some reason I decided that day at work I wanted to take her out to Mexican food and to a movie. (The boys were going to a baseball game that night.) To top it off, after I decided to do that, a co-worker I didn't even know treated everyone to Tumbleweed gift cards and someone else had just given me movie passes. I had forgotten it was the night of the dance, but when I got home and asked her to go, she said, "Who wants to go to the dance?" so, it was totally a non-issue. We had a fun night, an alternative, and it was completely without compromise or guilt on my part and hers. I am thankful that when we look for a way out, God provides one.

Pastor Gary, I don't believe it is your fault that some of the youth are choosing unwisely. I will pray for them for wisdom and for them to develop a healthy fear of the Lord (which is the beginning of wisdom). Blessings, Jennifer

[Jennifer Smith]

If you advised him to NOT go to the dance, I think that is a mistake and a decision you will live to regret. But you're his mom..

With all due respect, I think your opinion without understanding all the facts in this specific situation is presumptuous. Having interacted with Jennifer for a few years now, I assure you she isn't a novice.

God bless,
pa

Thanks I appreciate that!