The Night Liberty Wept

[Russell Roberts]

I have seen and am familiar with the whole 'entitlement attitude'. But we also have to be careful not to paint with too broad a brush. It's easy to pick out a class or race and depict them as evil while ignoring the evil thread that runs through ourselves (I'm not suggesting that you are doing that). I hope that my loyalty to Jesus transcends national, political, and racial lines. I think we have to be careful in too closely relating to one or other of the two major political parties on offer.

The entitlement mentality is not racial at all, and thanks for noting that I am not doing that. It is a mindset my dear old departed Daddy warned me against all his life with folksie Southernisms like "Son, the world don't owe you a living!"

You and I both know people who just think that regardless of their effort, preparation, lack of education, innate abilities or other factors, they are entitled to the trappings success and accomplishment of those who have achieved more than they have.

I know that there are smarter people than me... people who have risked more, invested more... people who have worked harder... people who have been in the right place at the right time and pounced upon opportunities I never had -- they have more than me, and I don't think I am entitled to what they have.

I'm with you Pastor Gary. If a man doesn't work, neither should he eat. Unfortunately, it is the government deciding among those in need who's eating and it's not always the same as who is working.

[valley]

I thought our liberty and freedom was established by being 'in Christ' - not by the policies of our government.

Two seperate issues.

People around the world, reguardless of the political system which they must endure or enjoy, have freedom and liberty that can only be found in Christ, freedom from sin and the liberty of a new life.

The concept of liberty that I wrote about, are the classical liberal freedoms (or liberties) that we have in the United States, but are not necessarily enjoyed by our brothers and sisters in repressive countries. These liberties, which do endeed flow from God, where fought for by patriots past and present, and enumerated within the social contract between the people and our government.

Valley,

They do indeed flow from God. As I read Paul, God has ordained the government to give order to society which would include preserving and protecting our liberties. But I don't think that their abrogation of this responsibility affects our freedom at all. Were it possible for Obama or anyone else to ban Christianity, would you stop worshipping? I don't think you would. I know I wouldn't.

Jesus was concerned with freedom from sin. He advocated treating the Roman oppressors with kindness. Not that I take our liberties for granted. In fact, I served four years in the infantry feeling that, as one who experiences the benefits of freedom, it was my obligation to this nation.

I voted for McCain. Not because I believe that he, as opposed to Obama, will uphold our freedom but because Obama supports the murder of children. I am curious though, which freedoms to you believe are at stake under Obama that were not at stake under McCain?

While this is a slippery slope argument, it is one that is grounded in reality. A government that is large enough to give you everything Obama has promised, is a government that is large enough to take away everything we have.

During a recent Constitutional Day debate on the recent Heller decision, I stood firmly for the right of individuals to keep weapons for protection. I started my presentation by talking about the liberties which makes this country great. But 2nd amendment rights are under attack constantly.

The moderator, who actually should have been the opposing side, argued that the people have a right to keep firearms so in community storage for the purpose of homeland security. I can see how she arrived at this reading, but historically speaking she was incorrect.

I made reference to a 1865/66 Congressional report that commented on the violence against former slaves in South Carolina. The report says that their Constitutional rights as citizens of the US were being violated by white mobs that were trying to remove their arms (guns).

She countered that they had a right because they needed to defend themselves from white aggression. The problem was, when I pointed out the violence in New Orleons following Katrina, she completely supported the gun ban, despite the violence against innocent people within the city.

Herein is the problem. According to this liberal professor, you have a right to a firearm, but it should be in a common locker. So if you need, you cannot have access to it. While technically they do not seek to remove the right, they wish to remove its force.

The same can be said of the freedom to freely exercise one's religion. Most, if not all, of the people on this board and I would disagree on the subject of same sex marriage. However, some to the left of me would dare argue that to speak out against same sex couples, or anyone that those of this religious community would deem sinners, would be hate speech and should not be protected under the Constitution. God forbid! One has the right to practice their faith as they see fit without interference with government (so long as that faith is not causing physical harm to others).

Its the baby steps that I worry with, which is why I voted for McCain. He was not my candidate of choice, but I felt as if he would at least help slow down the march toward the progressive agenda.

[Steve]

Here is a good snippet from Voddie Baucham's recent blog...

Through the news media, government education, and the entertainment media, Americans have been shaped and molded into the kind of people who view Ron Paul as a political hack, while applauding gay marriage (one of the first lines out of Obama’s mouth last night was an acknowledgement of homosexuals), wealth redistribution, and government intervention in the free market! How ironic. We sent our children to Caesar for their education, and yesterday they voted just like Romans (the majority of 18-30 year-olds flooded the polls for Obama whether they were professing “Christian” or not). These young people believe hatred and racism are America’s biggest problems, and that the election of Mr. Obama is the cure (along with Hate Crimes Legislation). They believe America is evil because we don’t have universal healthcare like the Europeans. They believe homosexuality is innate, the existence poverty is a sin, and abortion is an ethical (and completely personal) means of birth control. They believe in anthropogenic global warming, Darwinian evolution, Gramscian Marxism, and Freudian Psychology. In short, they believe what they’ve been taught during their 14,000 hours of government indoctrination. And yesterday, we saw the culmination of this cultural hegemony as Obama beat McCain like a tied up goat.


But do not despair. We survived Presidents like Wilson, Carter, and Clinton. We can survive President Obama. “...Even so, come Lord Jesus.” (Revelation 22:2)

[Dr. Ron]

I have heard all the "it's all right God is still in control" attempts at making us have a sense of security all day. I am sick of it all.

While I concede that God is the ultimate authority and holds the life of kings in his hands, we as a people will reap the consequences of our decision to allow this left wing radical to become the most powerful man in the world. He will not do well. Mark my words.....the work has already begun. All the dies were cast long before yesterday. The brakes came off last night and all day the engines have been churning.

We will pay the piper for this one. God help us.

[Pastor Gary]

...we as a people will reap the consequences of our decision to allow this left wing radical to become the most powerful man in the world. He will not do well. Mark my words....

Well, Ron, in all fairness, we marked your words when you said there was no possible chance that Obama could win, and McCain would sweep the election.

[Dr. Ron]

Actually, you didn't mark my words....... but you now use them to attempt the mockery of my belief in the American people....which I no longer possess.

I am a very sad American today.......Nancy has begun.....

[Russell Roberts]

Actually, you didn't mark my words....... but you now use them to attempt the mockery of my belief in the American people....which I no longer possess.

I am a very sad American today.......Nancy has begun.....

Dr. Ron,

Just out of curiosity, what the heck is Nancy?

My purpose for pointing out that 'God is in control' was to promote a Biblical worldview that was clearly embraced by the Apostles - nothing more, nothing less. This is a position I urged not only today, but prior to the election. As I noted somewhere today, the glory of God becomes apparent in our lack of distress in times that would, in the absence of faith, be distressing. Paul noted this among those characteristics that revealed God's glory in his ministry. Should we choose to follow his example, God's glory will also be revealed in our own lives by our lack of distress in times such as these when one who supports the murder of babies is elected President.

My disillusions regarding the American public were erased years ago when Bill Clinton was elected President.

Brother Ron, the source of your angst seems to be the presumption that Obama will really be in control. You don't seriously believe that...do you? The very message we proclaim is that Jesus has veto power over the President of the United States.

[dolfan]

I don't know the significance of Nancy, but I feel like Dr. Ron, and I even said early on that Obama would win. There's no consolation in being a good guesser. There's even less in being big about it, for me personally. But, the sun rose this morning and there's enough people with real money in the right places that, in the tradition of corruption, gives us hope that enough Congressmen can be bought just enough to blunt his agenda.

We gotta go on. I know God's in control. I know Barack Obama -- Barack Obama the community-organizing, Fairness Doctrine approving (and, he will no matter what he's said earlier), national defense gutting, coal-bankrupting, tax-increasing, spend-increasing, bailout, redistributing wealth by confiscating your money and giving it away to someone else, --- that Barack Obama will be President of the United States in about, ohhhh, 9 weeks or so. With an almost bulletproof majority in Congress. Unfettered and loaded for bear. God is in control, but I don't have to enjoy the ugly effects of His sovereignty anymore than Israel should've enjoyed their vacation in Babylon. I will, though, take comfort in the fact that I've got a family to love while God does His thing.

And, if that isn't bad enough, I just saw Laverne and Shirley on a commercial together for Zaxby's.

[Pastor Gary]

Actually, you didn't mark my words....... but you now use them to attempt the mockery of my belief in the American people....which I no longer possess.

I am a very sad American today.......Nancy has begun.....

What is all this "mockery" mess??? First Tim Elston, and now you??
Look, people -- lighten up. We are all friends here, and have always teased one another. All of a sudden everybody has thin skin and starts using terms like "mock."

[one love]

Actually, you didn't mark my words....... but you now use them to attempt the mockery of my belief in the American people....which I no longer possess.

I am a very sad American today.......Nancy has begun.....

What is all this "mockery" mess??? First Tim Elston, and now you??
Look, people -- lighten up. We are all friends here, and have always teased one another. All of a sudden everybody has thin skin and starts using terms like "mock."

I think emotions are still high and people are disappointed but I did not see you mocking anyone at all. It is just people let down I think.

[Tim Elston]

Actually, you didn't mark my words....... but you now use them to attempt the mockery of my belief in the American people....which I no longer possess.

I am a very sad American today.......Nancy has begun.....

What is all this "mockery" mess??? First Tim Elston, and now you??
Look, people -- lighten up. We are all friends here, and have always teased one another. All of a sudden everybody has thin skin and starts using terms like "mock."

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/mock
Mock
verb
To make fun or make fun of: deride, gibe, jeer, jest, laugh, ridicule, scoff, scout 2, twit. Chiefly British: quiz. Idiom: poke fun at. See laughter, respect


Gary, you were mocking. Broaden your semantic horizons.

All in jest, friend.

[Pastor Gary]

Actually, you didn't mark my words....... but you now use them to attempt the mockery of my belief in the American people....which I no longer possess.

I am a very sad American today.......Nancy has begun.....

What is all this "mockery" mess??? First Tim Elston, and now you??
Look, people -- lighten up. We are all friends here, and have always teased one another. All of a sudden everybody has thin skin and starts using terms like "mock."

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/mock
Mock
verb
To make fun or make fun of: deride, gibe, jeer, jest, laugh, ridicule, scoff, scout 2, twit. Chiefly British: quiz. Idiom: poke fun at. See laughter, respect


Gary, you were mocking. Broaden your semantic horizons.

All in jest, friend.

The word "mock" carries the unspoken connotation of derision, and I don't see the term "tease" in there anywhere.

[Tim Elston]

The word "mock" carries the unspoken connotation of derision, and I don't see the term "tease" in there anywhere.

If you weren't mocking I'm not Tim Elston. You do it, you own it. If you want only to claim half the definition, then don't do the other half.

Ain't this fun!

[Tim Elston]

The word "mock" carries the unspoken connotation of derision, and I don't see the term "tease" in there anywhere.

If you weren't mocking I'm not Tim Elston. You do it, you own it. If you want only to claim half the definition, then don't do the other half.

Ain't this fun!

And, trust me, I don't mind you calling me Centrist when I'm on a tirade if you don't mind me calling you Christian when you're mad about "socialism."

[Pastor Gary]

If you weren't mocking I'm not Tim Elston.

Please introduce yourself, stranger.

This has been an entire week of dealing with assumptions, misunderstandings, hurt feelings over perceptions, rumors, gossip, "he said"/"she said" to the point that I am physically ill today, making it doubly hard to pray and fast.

I need a break.