America collapsing?

[pastorables]

Is America in trouble of break up? What think ye?

pa

From Drudge www.drudgereport.com

RUSSIAN ANALYST PREDICTS DECLINE AND BREAKUP OF USA
Tue Nov 25 2008 09:04:22 ET

A leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts.

Professor Igor Panarin said in an interview with the respected daily IZVESTIA published on Monday: "The dollar is not secured by anything. The country's foreign debt has grown like an avalanche, even though in the early 1980s there was no debt. By 1998, when I first made my prediction, it had exceeded $2 trillion. Now it is more than 11 trillion. This is a pyramid that can only collapse."

The paper said Panarin's dire predictions for the U.S. economy, initially made at an international conference in Australia 10 years ago at a time when the economy appeared strong, have been given more credence by this year's events.

When asked when the U.S. economy would collapse, Panarin said: "It is already collapsing. Due to the financial crisis, three of the largest and oldest five banks on Wall Street have already ceased to exist, and two are barely surviving. Their losses are the biggest in history. Now what we will see is a change in the regulatory system on a global financial scale: America will no longer be the world's financial regulator."

When asked who would replace the U.S. in regulating world markets, he said: "Two countries could assume this role: China, with its vast reserves, and Russia, which could play the role of a regulator in Eurasia."

Asked why he expected the U.S. to break up into separate parts, he said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in the U.S. will get worse. Millions of citizens there have lost their savings. Prices and unemployment are on the rise. General Motors and Ford are on the verge of collapse, and this means that whole cities will be left without work. Governors are already insistently demanding money from the federal center. Dissatisfaction is growing, and at the moment it is only being held back by the elections and the hope that Obama can work miracles. But by spring, it will be clear that there are no miracles."

He also cited the "vulnerable political setup", "lack of unified national laws", and "divisions among the elite, which have become clear in these crisis conditions."

He predicted that the U.S. will break up into six parts - the Pacific coast, with its growing Chinese population; the South, with its Hispanics; Texas, where independence movements are on the rise; the Atlantic coast, with its distinct and separate mentality; five of the poorer central states with their large Native American populations; and the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong.

He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all." Panarin, 60, is a professor at the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and has authored several books on information warfare.

Developing...

[dbserv]

I wonder how Sarah P. will enjoy the up close and personal view of Russia (Siberia, that is)???

[MacUser]

I believe something terrible is going to happen in Russia and it will further devolve into waring KGB controlled factions. We have personally witnessed this already and I believe Russia is fighting like mad to keep it under control.

It's only a matter of time. Russia R.I.P.


Mr. Medvedev.. the cold war KGB tactics work both ways. Somehow we have become so weak minded with a willing liberal media and liberal education system to understand or recognize an incoming putin mental missile when one is shot.

Beam me up scotty.

[dolfan]

The ol' comrade may be right. Maybe. But, let's say he's bright enough to figure this out. He's the genius among us, let's say. Why, then, did he not warn the USSR of its own impending breakup? I don't find him saying that in this article. So, is he a prophet of real doom? Or, is he just looking to really profit from jumping on the America-is-doomed rhetoric?
If he is just a professor-come-lately (get in line, Comrade, Ward Churchill was in front of this parade long before you), why worry?

Let's say, though, that he's speaking from "experience". After all, he did watch the USSR collapse first-hand, didn't he? Are there lessons to be drawn for us? And, are there precautions that believers should be taking? I think maybe precautions, or shall we say -- proactions -- are called for by believers. Not because "America is doomed"; heck, man, any nation doling out $7 trillion to nationalize its economy with money backed by nothing is a house of cards that will eventually fall. We've all had concerns (to say the least) that our culture is at a tipping point, morally, cohesively, politically, etc., for a long time. What with all of the comparisons to ancient Rome and what have you, why should this shock us, IF this blind Russian squirrel has, perchance, discovered an acorn?

Neal Boortz is giving it some credence today. That doesn't mean we should, but should we dismiss it out of hand? I don't think so. There is more than a possibility at play here. There are distinct probabilities that common sense alone should advise us are really before us. One is that our society cannot maintain itself with its policy of forced diversity. It hasn't worked anywhere else. We have been slow to embrace notions of economic justice and social justice. I don't blame us for that -- I've been against government forcing those issues. However, the bible informs our views, doesn't it? And, we see throughout God's revelatory history of Himself that He demands that we be equitable with each other, see to one another's welfare and well-being, and that we work hard and work hard together. We've been so good at hard work, we've been so good at opening opportunity, but we've been slow to take the import of the idea of "justice" regarding these things as a matter of biblical truth. I've maintained that Christians have THE blueprint for organizing our own order of life in this world. But, when you look at something as simple but stark as our divorce rate, it is obvious that something is sick at the core of our faith. We are unable to see and order our lives around Acts 2 living because we don't order our lives around Luke 10:27 living.

Now, I don't believe this Russian guy has demonstrated how smart he is. I don't have any faith that what he says is accurate. If he is right, it is dumb luck. But, we've all, believers in America, evangelicals in particular, been eager to shed light on the vagaries of American life while we've managed to fully buy into them. Jesus addressed this point spot-on: a house divided against itself cannot stand. If the Russian fellow is right, is it because he's so smart, or is it because we're just too committed to our way of life in this time and place to see the truth?

For one, I'm not interested in political answers because there are none.

[Russell Roberts]

I read the article on the Drudge Report and calculated the per capita debt. Eleven trillion dollars works out to over $36,000 in national debt for every man, woman, and child in the United States. The borrower is truly slave to the lender. What is interesting is that the United States will soon reap what we have sown across the world.

The Bretton-Woods agreement was put into place after WWII under terms that, in effect, enslaved third countries to the United States throught the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. Do you suspect that it is by coincidence that most Americans make more in a month than most people in the world make in a year? It isn't. But global debt relief could be solved for the price of less than what Americans spend for movies each year.

Sadly, we will soon reap the oppression of foreign nations we have sown since the end of WWII. That's my opinion anyhow.

[paul]

I read the article on the Drudge Report and calculated the per capita debt. Eleven trillion dollars works out to over $36,000 in national debt for every man, woman, and child in the United States. The borrower is truly slave to the lender. What is interesting is that the United States will soon reap what we have sown across the world.

The Bretton-Woods agreement was put into place after WWII under terms that, in effect, enslaved third countries to the United States throught the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. Do you suspect that it is by coincidence that most Americans make more in a month than most people in the world make in a year? It isn't. But global debt relief could be solved for the price of less than what Americans spend for movies each year.

Sadly, we will soon reap the oppression of foreign nations we have sown since the end of WWII. That's my opinion anyhow.

And right you are my friend...........

[MacUser]

oh brother.

[Tim Elston]

For one, I'm not interested in political answers because there are none.

Tim, I generally agree with your assessment. The Russian comrade, of course, is partly right, partly wrong, and notably self-serving. That the Russian government is poised to be a regulator of anything is a joke, other than, of course, through its mafia branch. It seems wholly absurd to think that the current economic crisis will eventuate into a breaking of the US into five countries, partly along ethnic lines, no less. That's not to say that breaking into parts wouldn't serve it right for its overextension. And that's where the right part comes in: America eventually will fall, or at least fade into the margins. All nations do.

But you say that there are no political answers, and you are right. Tell me, though, are there any religious answers to this problem? Are their any spiritual answers? Christian answers? I mean, answers to this particular problem. Will or can Christianity solve the problem of America's national mortality? I would say, no. America is a political entity. It is human, it is secular, it is temporal. It is subject to all the vicissitudes of a secular structure destined for the trash heap.

If you agree, then by saying that you are not interested in political solutions, are you saying that you are not interested in America's destiny? America is a purely political entity. Its only solutions can be political, as such. The church cannot, will not, is not willing, to save America, because America is earthly, entirely. The church can save only itself. I mean, Jesus did not die, according the Christian faith, to save America as a nation or a superpower. He came to save people and thus join them to himself. America is irrelevant to the Cross. America is a flower that fades away as the grass. It is in a field of flowers, nations come and gone, and yet to be born and wither into oblivion.

But if we are nonetheless interested in America because, despite its mortality, it is our homeland, our system of stewardship over earthly justice, economic stability, and protection against mortal threat, then shouldn't we, in fact, be interested in political solutions? Political solutions will ultimately fail, of course, but in the interim, is not a political entity's only hope political in nature, just as a spiritual entity's only hope is spiritual in nature? How successful have spiritual solutions been for secular states? Indeed, how successful have spiritual solutions been for spiritual entities? Are there solutions for the church in the current age that, by comparison, have proven more effective than political solutions have proven effective for political entities?

What I am trying to probe is this recurring reflex you have to retreat into what I see to be idealism. Yes, political solutions will not ultimately save America from collapse. But, the final eschaton aside, how has the church fared with spiritual solutions? with Christian solutions? with biblical solutions? I know that you agree, not very well, so far, but spiritual, Christian, and biblical solutions are the only solutions the church has, because it is a spiritual, Christian, and biblical entity. America is not that, and its only solutions can be political. However ultimately ineffectual they will be, they are exclusively appropriate to a political entity. No?

[Russell Roberts]

The Gospel IS POLITICAL!!!

[crispfin]

The Gospel IS POLITICAL!!!

Sure is, and for an interesting perspective on that thought I would recommend Jesus for President by Shane Claiborne and Chris Haw. You may not agree with his conclusions, but he will definitely make you think.

[Tim Elston]

The Gospel IS POLITICAL!!!

Come on, elaborate, in relation to the topic. I'm all ears. Obviously a preterist will understand the rule of Christ politically. Spin that out for us in terms of this thread's theme.

[Russell Roberts]

Ok my brother Tim. First century Jews didn't so easily seperate 'political' from 'spiritual'. It was kinda happily jumbled up together. The word 'Gospel' in it's Greek context referred to the announcement that was made from nearby hilltops outside Rome when a new King was born, acceded the throne, or a major military victory had been won. This was the 'euangellion' the Gospel, the Good News.

In it's Jewish context the word looks back to Isaiah. Isaiah predicted that the 'Good News' - the euangellion would go forth that God had actually returned to Zion to Rule! This was what they were waiting for when Jesus showed up. But they wanted him to smash the Romans. Instead, Jesus defeated the true enemies of the empire WHILE he was dying on the cross - the enemies of sin and death. It was the paradox of paradoxes. They only THOUGHT they were shaming him but the exact opposite was happening. JESUS WAS SHAMING THEM! He was publicly humiliating the powers that be from the CROSS!!!!

Caesar proclaimed to be Kurios (Lord) and also proclaimed that he was Soter (Savior). The euangellion that Paul preached was a direct confrontation with the claims of Caesar. And where do we find brother Paul at the end of Acts? On Caesars home turf declaring Jesus, and not Caesar as Kurios and Soter. I love it when a plan comes together!!!

Col 2:14 He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.
Col 2:15 Disarming the rulers and authorities, he has made a public disgrace of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

So, what are the implications for us today? We are to continue to act as Paul did - as Isaianic Heralds to announce that hey, God has veto power. Jesus rules, not Bush, not Obama. JESUS IS THE KING. Don't be disturbed if your candidate didn't get elected. God's will is going forward. God raised Pharoah up for his own purpose and whoever is in office will be an agent, knowing or unknowing, to accomplish God's will.

[Russell Roberts]

Implications of my above explanation. I am not sure about the destiny of this country. I think Tim mentioned that nations rise and fall and at some point, the United States, as we know it, will no longer exist. The solution that Jesus provides transcends any kind of solution put forward by any government. The enemy of the kingdom to which we belong is not Russia, Islam, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, or any other nation. The enemy of God's kingdom is sin and death - nexus powers that Jesus defeated on the cross. The battle over who REALLY rules the world was decided at the cross. Jesus is LORD is the announcement that neither the President of Russia, the U.S. President, or any other world leader is in charge. Jesus is.

We have inherited the cosmos (Rom 4:13). Under the leadership of Jesus we are to rule over it and exercise authority over it. What does this look like my friends? Our AUTHORITY over the world looks like bleeding, dying, self-giving love. Jesus came into his kingdom on the cross...and so do we.

[Tim Elston]

So, what are the implications for us today? We are to continue to act as Paul did - as Isaianic Heralds to announce that hey, God has veto power. Jesus rules, not Bush, not Obama. JESUS IS THE KING. Don't be disturbed if your candidate didn't get elected. God's will is going forward. God raised Pharoah up for his own purpose and whoever is in office will be an agent, knowing or unknowing, to accomplish God's will.

Okay, I get your perspective. But this seems to be an anti-politic, in a way. Your point seems to coincide with dolfan's. Ultimately earthly politics don't matter, because Christ has subverted them. What really matters is the kingdom of God, the reign of which may or may not be manifested in the reign of earthly powers. I would agree that's the Gospel perspective.

What, then, of America? What, then, of nations as policital institutions? As stewards of earthly governance? Does the Gospel compel a detachment from or denial of this sphere of life? Or, does it per se compel involvement in or conquest of earthly politics? Is the sum total a clash of reigns, or does the clash imply engagement on constructive terms during an interim of anticipation? How should Christians relate to their earthly country, its political institutions, its public square? Is there provision in the Gospel for them to value and influence their particular country's future economical and political course?

[Russell Roberts]

Okay, I get your perspective. But this seems to be an anti-politic, in a way. Your point seems to coincide with dolfan's.

Some, but I don't deny political solutions.

Ultimately earthly politics don't matter, because Christ has subverted them. What really matters is the kingdom of God, the reign of which may or may not be manifested in the reign of earthly powers. I would agree that's the Gospel perspective.

Earthly politics DO matter. Where we see injustice, we should fight for justice whether through political means or otherwise.

What, then, of America? What, then, of nations as policital institutions? As stewards of earthly governance? Does the Gospel compel a detachment from or denial of this sphere of life? Or, does it per se compel involvement in or conquest of earthly politics? Is the sum total a clash of reigns, or does the clash imply engagement on constructive terms during an interim of anticipation? How should Christians relate to their earthly country, its political institutions, its public square? Is there provision in the Gospel for them to value and influence their particular country's future economical and political course?

Here is how I see it. We MUST engage the culture but we must also admit that the loyalties of the family to which we belong (Christians) transcends national, political, and familial ties. How does this look in praxis? It means opposing emperialist national aims, decrying the death of innocemt civilian casualties as well as aborted babies...insisting that the destroyers of the earth quit destroying it...confronting the powers that be with the story of scripture. God's word MUST be addressed in the public forum...it must be part of public discourse Though I haven't studied the issue in depth, it seems that the authority of the government to rule is from God. Jesus acknowledged as much in his statement to Pilate.

But where government acts in opposition to the authority upon which it is based, it must be constructively confronted. The sphere in which we are called to act is very much this worldly sphere. Many Christians buy in to a gnostic view of life and hold to a 'Kiss My Left Behind' escapist mentaliity. I don't. We are standing in the promised land. It really matters what we do here. THIS is the creation that groans awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God. We should be acting as a kingdom of priests rendering creation back to God. That means, in my estimation, fighting for justice wherever we find ourselves. Sadly, evangelicalism finds itself married to the Republican party. I think this is a HUGE mistake.

To your specific questions...

Does the Gospel compel a detachment from or denial of this sphere of life? Or, does it per se compel involvement in or conquest of earthly politics?

The Gospel compels ATTACHMENT, not detachment. God's kingdom IS this world. His authority to rule it is not ek (from) this world. So it demands our attention to matters of this sphere of life. I don't subscribe to C. Peter Wagner style dominionism. He doesn't understand what dominion LOOKS like. It is cruciform. Jesus ruled and reigned from the cross. He didn't consider his equality with God as something to be grasped but something that uniquely qualified him for the task at hand - to die on a cross in the ultimate act of self-sacrifice. The cross is a paradox. It is where we actually see what dominion looks like.

How should Christians relate to their earthly country, its political institutions, its public square?

They should love their earthly country, engage and confront its political institutions (all both of them) and discuss Jesus in its public square (without fear of history upon which our faith is founded).

Is there provision in the Gospel for them to value and influence their particular country's future economical and political course?

Not only is there room, I think it is our responsibility to do so.

I'm no expert on the matter, I just try to weed through these issues as they come up. I do think we should be fully engaged and in dialogue with our leaders. We should also submit to them. There is no authority other than what is established by God. Just some thoughts brother. Does that answer your question?