a few years back

[Pastor Bill]

The scriptures "Pastor Bill" is referring to are listed above in my post, with the husband's responsibilities highlighted.

Yeah I know brother, you had it there too, just that PG's was shorter and more concise, which made an easier quote!

[c u there]

Pastor Bill, racerunner is a Sister not a Brother.

[Pastor Bill]

Pastor Bill, racerunner is a Sister not a Brother.

I AM SO SORRY don't know why I assumed that! Please forgive my ignorance

[RaceRunner]

Pastor Bill, racerunner is a Sister not a Brother.

I AM SO SORRY don't know why I assumed that! Please forgive my ignorance

HAHAHAHAHA!
I didn't see that. No apologies needed.
I don't know what happened to my signature!

Tammy Washburn

[Poimen]

In the garden, the perfect arrangement had been created. God ruled over Adam and Eve (with Eve as Adam's help meet).

At the introduction of sin into the world...the new chain of Spiritual command to those who served God would be God-Adam-Eve..... or God- Husband-Wife. The world hates this arrangement.

Eve, who desired to be like God, would now have to answer to, be subject to, her husband's rule and dominion. ...

The desire/longing is to be suitable and fitting to her husband.

Suitable; adapted to a use or purpose, satisfying propriety : ABLE , QUALIFIED

Fitting: of a kind appropriate to the situation


1Co 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

Sis. Tammy,

I really enjoyed your response.

I find myself mostly in agreement. However, I have some comments about the quoted portion above. It seems to say that you feel that woman becoming and desiring to be a suitable aid to man, that is her husband, is part of the curse. It also seems that you are saying woman was not accountable to man/husband before the fall.

I differ there. As you already noted woman was created to be an help meet. That is literally a suitable helper or counterpart.

Paul makes it clear that this function existed pre-fall, and was God's express design for woman as wife.

For a man ... he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

[RaceRunner]

We actually agree and I'll explain later. I'm not perfect in wording you know...but interesting topic.

We're having church tonight and I gotta run.

[Full Quiver]

Are you guys saying the woman can rebel , without God's punishment, if the man does not love her as Christ loves the church?

Christ ALWAYS loves his bride, the church, but often times we don't obey. I'd say plenty of women rebel when in fact their husbands do love them.

I still don't think anyone answered my original question.

[Tim Elston]

a husband shouldn't normally ask anything of his wife that is unreasonable, nor anything that is detrimental to her. Love would compel otherwise.

Agreed.

Albeit there are exceptions -- cases where doing what is best for the wife may differ with what is most desired by the wife, etc.

Yes, and vice versa, I'd imagine.

Nevertheless, the fulfillment of these instructions are NOT contingent on mutuality. That is the wife is not relieved of her duty because the husband fails or abuses his. Nor is the husband relieved of his responsibility because the wife is derelict or failing in hers.

I would hope that a wife who was told by her husband never to leave the house without him, never to leave his side in public, not to sit by her mother at her mother's birthday party, etc., would free herself from his captivity and tell him where to go. I saw a show a few weeks ago where that was exactly the situation. There is nothing immoral per se about not sitting by your mother, or being by your husband's side in public, or going out with your husband. But the husband was essentially lording it over his wife and holding her in captivity to his need to control her. There was nothing loving about his enslavement of her, and there was nothing immoral per say about his specific requirements. But it amount to captivity. No woman should be under any obligation to obey the dictates of such control. I, for one, stand against the abuse of women in that way, whether it's a presumed mandate of scripture, or not.

[Poimen]

No woman should be under any obligation to obey the dictates of such control. I, for one, stand against the abuse of women in that way, whether it's a presumed mandate of scripture, or not.

Tim,

I understand your concern. I do not adovocate, nor does Scripture, such selfish abuse of power by the husband. Nevertheless, there is still the issue of "the powers that be..." and all that.

God takes headship very seriously -- on all levels. Respect for authority is a general rule of conduct and behavior for believers. Even when that authority is lording it over us, mistreating us, despising us, or demeaning us. It is still ours to honor them. The same is true of the wife who has an unloving, unkind, and ungodly husband.

The husband who is living up to His God ordained role will not require or engage is such silliness and pettiness. Nevertheless, God expects wives to fulfill their role just the same, despite harshness on their spouses part. The same is true for the husband when the tables are turned!

That's the same principle Scripture teaches concerning slaves and masters...

Of slaves towards their masters. And of masters toward their slaves.

Of people toward their governors, and governors toward their people.

Of children toward their parents, and parents toward their children.

Of wives toward their husbands, and husbands toward their wives

And ultimately of man towards God.


As unpolpular or uncivilized as it may seem, God knows best. We should not lean unto our own understanding, but in all our ways acknowledge Him, and follow the path He directs us to take. In doing so we can rest assured that God is faithful to reward each of us according to our deeds.

I hope you are following my intention here and do not misconstrue me to be calloused or deminuitive of the role of woman or wife. Not at all!

[Tim Elston]

I hope you are following my intention here and do not misconstrue me to be calloused or deminuitive of the role of woman or wife.

Poimen, I know you're a good man, and I am confident that you treat your wife with love.

I know of no relationship that imposes an absolute obligation to tolerate abuse. Neither that of a wife with her husband, nor of a parishioner with his pastor, nor of a child with her parents, nor of a slave with his master, let alone of a dog with its owner. Humans, and dogs, for that matter, are endowed with the inalienable right to dignity. In Christian theology, whatever submission means, it does not mean an absolute obligation to endure abuse. To teach so is to impose a letter upon the spirit, and to preclude themes of redemption, emancipation, and liberty. Yes, there are inherent structures to the natural order. These structures were never meant to be abusive, nor do they imply an absolute obligation to tolerate abuse. Authority is never absolute, as claimed and practised by humans, even, and perhaps especially, in the name of God.

[RaceRunner]

Sis. Tammy,

I really enjoyed your response.

I find myself mostly in agreement. However, I have some comments about the quoted portion above. It seems to say that you feel that woman becoming and desiring to be a suitable aid to man, that is her husband, is part of the curse. It also seems that you are saying woman was not accountable to man/husband before the fall.

I differ there. As you already noted woman was created to be an help meet. That is literally a suitable helper or counterpart.

Paul makes it clear that this function existed pre-fall, and was God's express design for woman as wife.

For a man ... he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

I may have made it sound that way, but that is not what I meant. Allow me to explain. Basically I only delved into the lives & feelings of Christian women .... women whose lives have been restored by Jesus Christ to their proper relationship in their marriage... and the scriptures pertaining to them regarding their place within a Christian marriage.

So I'll go back to the beginning.

1. Life isn't a curse but a blessing......but the sorrow in it is.
2. Childbearing isn't a curse but a blessing...but the pain and travail is.

3. Marriage and being a help meet (women's created position before the fall) isn't a curse, but a blessing...but something changed with the fall didn't it? What does her "desire will be to her husband" mean??

The perfectly united, perfectly harmonious relationship between man, his wife/helpmeet and God was changed with the introduction of sin and death in the world and women ended up with "less" than what Eve originally possessed in the garden relationship.

What women lost in Eden.....
We see it restored by Christ here:

Eph 5:23-25 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:28-30 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his
bones.

In the Garden, this relationship existed with Man and Woman; Husband and Wife....united, harmonious, loving and cherishing. A man, with his wife/helpmeet standing united in loving fellowship before God....forever, if they had chosen....passing on the legacy of perfect fellowship to their children's children.

But of course sin and death destroyed all that....and I'm sure Eve realized that very quickly when her daughters were given to men who were not like Adam....who didn't cherish them....didn't love them....and wasn't willing to die for them. Who were steeped in sin and began to abuse their wives. How horrible for Eve!!! She knew what marriage perfection was....and couldn't pass it on to her daughters. How very heartbreaking. Her lustful desires not only cost her Eden....but also happiness for her daughter's daughters.

Women's relationship with her husband wasn't part of the curse, her created position as helpmeet wasn't the curse...but somehow her position did change within the relationship between her, her husband and God....especially when sin and death began it's rule outside the garden.

History shows and many modern societies reveals that women from that point forward were relegated to the position of chattels.

The Jews (God's chosen) were taught to elevate and treat women/wives better than the rest of the world, but it is only through Christ and Christianity that men are taught to love, honor and cherish their wives as the weaker vessel...giving their lives for them...like Christ did for the Church.

Modern sin-filled women have scratched and clawed for equality....not realizing that equality and honor only comes through Christ and submission to HIS will and plan. Modern sin-filled man have always sought to dominate ....not realizing that Christ is truly the only dominion, and if they would learn to submit to God, their marriages would become ideal. Sacrificial living in Christ leads to harmony on both sides.

Our only hope to have that perfect, harmonious relationship with our husband and God is to accept His plan of Salvation and allow Christ to rule and reign in our hearts.

Then and only then can we be restored by Jesus Christ to proper relationships in our marriage.

Have you ever wondered why we are not given in marriage in Heaven?
Perhaps because the Christian marriage here on earth is a glimpse of the marriage of the Bride and Lamb? Christ purchased her with his blood...died and suffered for her....she is bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh...his body. What was lost in Eden....now finally made perfect. Christ and His Bride (The Church) in perfect united harmony enjoying each other's fellowship eternally.

Anyway....hope that answers your concerns.

[stevenson]

Anyways......I agree with Pastor Gary, of course. My intent was not to get off into all this. But my intent was to say that God always stretches us. Woman are normally more emotionl than men and have an easier time dispensing love. But God commanded the Man to love. And men love clear direction. As much as we grumble about our bosses, we hate it even more when we're not given orders. We like to know who's in charge and who do we report to. And God gave that command to the woman.

I think God was trying to help us understand each other better.

Now with that said, I will say this, some men take that rule thing way to far!!!! I am the head, the boss, the whatever of my house... but my wife is the Queen Bee and has plenty of input! And alot of that input has kept us out of trouble over the years!