Can someone Please tell Obama...

[Pastor Gary]

...for holding innocent men in prison indefinitely, etc. ...

If you are talking about U.S. Border Agents Ramos and Compean, who are innocent in the sense that they were trying to keep an enemy of America out of our country when they shot the slime-bag drug dealer, and are now doing time for this "crime"... if you are talking about those two men who should have been given medals instead of convictions, I agree.

Congressman Dana Rohrabacher says they are being treated worse than detainees housed in Camp 4 in Guantanamo Bay:
"During the press conference, Rep. Rohrabacher pointed out benefits afforded to detainees housed in Camp 4 in Guantanamo Bay that Ramos and Compean are denied while incarcerated in solitary confinement. For example, Gitmo detainees are permitted up to nine hours of access to exercise and recreational facilities that include picnic tables, ping-pong, soccer and volleyball, as well as, permission to view Arabic TV programs, according to Department of Defense news releases. Ramos and Compean, on the other hand, are remanded to a single cell for 23 hours a day, without access to any of the privileges given to inmates in general population."

I'm not familiar with the Ramos and Compean case, but your comments remind me of how southern power used to justify slavery with the argument that blacks were better off as slaves then they were as free men. Holding innocent men in prison indefinitely without charge is not justified by TV and ping-pong privileges.

Interesting attempt to twist my point by associating me with racists. Nice try.

Which men in Gitmo are innocent, and what is your evidence for their innocence? If, by "innocent" you mean not yet convicted, that's pretty lame in terms of war. Perhaps we should have just run this one like WWII where we killed our enemies in place instead of removing them from the field of battle, eliminating their ability to do us further harm, and providing them medical care and Chaplains of their own faith.

But, hey, let's not blame those who chose to fight a guerilla war, dressed as civilians and remove themselves from the civilized constraints of international conflict conventions -- just blame Cheney/Bush for putting these fine, upstanding, innocents in detention.

[Full Quiver]

Gary, I can't say everyone picked up on the battlefield was/is guilty because our military is yet human but I can't understand why liberals want the UN to police the world but cry when the U.S. arrests the criminals of the world because the UN won't.

[Dr. Ron]

Well, back to the "real point " and then beyond.

No seal was necessary for this transition team. I think by now we all know who the President Elect is. I don't think he needs anymore titles before his inauguration. We have never had a seal before for other presidents elect so no it was not needed but rather another "in your face" posturing.

No beyond.....

Tim, I always applaud you for being studious. I know that you are a reader, a listener, an erudite. But I am concerned that you are not a thinker for yourself.

How many times and ways does it have to be stated and re-stated that President Bush had the same information that members of congress (who voted for the war) had. You were military intelligence. You know very well how all that works. He did what he did on the evidence given him.

And.......we know that there were indeed wmds. Since you are a reader, how about reading a book by Georges Sadda. He wrote a book called Saddam's General. He was the second in command of the Iraqi Air Force. He was the only Christian in the military command. He swears that the wmds were placed in Iraqi planes and flown to Syria. They sit on the tarmac there stiil in place. And it will soon be revealed. Just as soon as the great pretender takes office. He will "find" them. He will chase Osama Ben Laden to the "gates of hell" and get us in far more trouble than poor George ever thought about.

Before you bash Bush so much, think about where you would have been under Gore. There is a God and he kept us from that horror.

[deb]

I mean, they could've put up a sign that said "(Insert number here) Days Until the Guy America Elected Becomes President" and made a countdown ticker.

That's exactly what they're doing on the front page of our Daily Press newspaper - with the Presidential seal behind him.

[crispfin]

I mean, they could've put up a sign that said "(Insert number here) Days Until the Guy America Elected Becomes President" and made a countdown ticker.

That's exactly what they're doing on the front page of our Daily Press newspaper - with the Presidential seal behind him.

Really? That's interesting. I was thinking if someone wanted to be funny they could set something up like New Year's in Times Square and they could wait for the Obama ball to drop. "10 . . . 9 . . . 8 . . . "

[Mike Vande]

What bothers me is not the seal, but nit-picking Obama for little things like this...

Oh you haven't seen anything yet, Tim. Wait till he disappoints the loyal liberal media, and with all the hype that no one could live up to surrounding him, he's bound to. They'll tear him to pieces for not being liberal enough while the conservatives tear the pieces to even smaller pieces for being too liberal and partisan. The black community will, on the down-low, of course, be getting angrier and angrier every day he doesn't live up to their expectations, and get them some new entitlement and qadvantage over all other minorities and whitey. And by the time the poor guy's done stepping and fetching for that vampire Nancy Pelosi, he'll be sorry he didn't wait as long as his predecessors waited to start parading around with a seal of office, and probably be even sorrier that he ever ran in the first place.

I kinda expect his presidency to go something like Jimmy Carter's. He'll have a honeymoon for a little bit, but when the international scene blows up in the middle of his attempts to impliment national policy, he'll come off looking namby-pamby. He won't get a second term if the Middle East goes BLOOIE in any noticeable way. He'd better come up with a withdrawal plan to start getting the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan in five years. That way, when Al Qaeda moves in and takes over after the American Troops move out, he'll be out of office, and whatever Republican takes his place will take the blame with it.

Hey, it worked for Clinton. If he'd stepped up and taken down Bin Laden when he had the chance, there wouldn't have been a 9-11. And no one but the mosr rabid conservatives blame him for it...

[Gerald Creasy]

Oh you haven't seen anything yet, Tim. Wait till he disappoints the loyal liberal media, and with all the hype that no one could live up to surrounding him, he's bound to. ...

It's already starting.

Some in the media thought just electing Obama would cut down global terrorism.

MSNBC ANCHOR ALEX WITT: You know, John, and it’s interesting because there are many who had such an optimstic and hopeful opinion of things, and you certainly can’t expect things to change [snaps fingers] on a dime overnight, but there are many who suggested that with the outgoing Bush administration and the incoming Obama administration there would be something of a lull in terrorism attacks. There had been such a global outpouring of affection, respect, hope, with the new administration coming in, that precisely these kinds of attacks, it was thought — at least hoped — would be dampered down. But in this case it looks like Barack Obama is getting a preview of things to come.

Yeah.

[Tim Elston]

I kinda expect his presidency to go something like Jimmy Carter's.

The chances are better than not that it will look something like that. Many conservatives will be at the ready hypocritically to blame Obama for everything, after they weren't willing to blame Bush for anything. I expect Obama's presidency to bog down. The difference between me and some is that I was willing to criticize Bush for his gross violations of American values while partisan Republicans weren't.

Hey, it worked for Clinton. If he'd stepped up and taken down Bin Laden when he had the chance, there wouldn't have been a 9-11. And no one but the mosr rabid conservatives blame him for it...

That, and if Bush had gone after Bin Laden instead of Hussein, who had nothing to do with 9/11, we wouldn't have gotten another 3000+ Americans killed and provided a terrorist training ground for Bin Laden in Iraq at our expense.

[one love]

I kinda expect his presidency to go something like Jimmy Carter's.

The chances are better than not that it will look something like that. Many conservatives will be at the ready hypocritically to blame Obama for everything, after they weren't willing to blame Bush for anything. I expect Obama's presidency to bog down. The difference between me and some is that I was willing to criticize Bush for his gross violations of American values while partisan Republicans weren't.

Hey, it worked for Clinton. If he'd stepped up and taken down Bin Laden when he had the chance, there wouldn't have been a 9-11. And no one but the mosr rabid conservatives blame him for it...

That, and if Bush had gone after Bin Laden instead of Hussein, who had nothing to do with 9/11, we wouldn't have gotten another 3000+ Americans killed and provided a terrorist training ground for Bin Laden in Iraq at our expense.

23 resolutions Tim forget 9-11 all he had to do was let the inspectors in. You must be of the mindset the weapons just vanished and were never there.

[EagerBeaver]

I kinda expect his presidency to go something like Jimmy Carter's.

The chances are better than not that it will look something like that. Many conservatives will be at the ready hypocritically to blame Obama for everything, after they weren't willing to blame Bush for anything. I expect Obama's presidency to bog down. The difference between me and some is that I was willing to criticize Bush for his gross violations of American values while partisan Republicans weren't.

Hey, it worked for Clinton. If he'd stepped up and taken down Bin Laden when he had the chance, there wouldn't have been a 9-11. And no one but the mosr rabid conservatives blame him for it...

That, and if Bush had gone after Bin Laden instead of Hussein, who had nothing to do with 9/11, we wouldn't have gotten another 3000+ Americans killed and provided a terrorist training ground for Bin Laden in Iraq at our expense.

23 resolutions Tim forget 9-11 all he had to do was let the inspectors in. You must be of the mindset the weapons just vanished and were never there.

SADDAM
was the wmd

[pastorables]

That, and if Bush had gone after Bin Laden instead of Hussein, who had nothing to do with 9/11, we wouldn't have gotten another 3000+ Americans killed and provided a terrorist training ground for Bin Laden in Iraq at our expense.

Where would you have started? Bin Laden's Muslim brothers are everywhere. I think we started in about as good a place as any.

[Tim Elston]

23 resolutions

It's odd how UN resolutions become so important to conservatives when it's convenient. How about the UN resolutions that Israel hasn't obeyed? Do you think we should attack it?

forget 9-11

Ah, yes, forget 9/11. We get attacked by al-Qaeda and, forget it, we've got some decade-old UN resolutions that take priority.

all he had to do was let the inspectors in.

Wrong. The inspectors were in just prior to the war. A Canadian brokered deal was on the table for absolute access by US inspectors. The US refused it because it wasn't interested in the truth about WMDs. It had a geopolitical strategy to enact.

You must be of the mindset the weapons just vanished and were never there.

Iraq destroyed its WMDs. The Bush administration is on record stating that it was wrong about Iraq's possession of them. The fantasy that Iraq offloaded its WMDs into Syria just when it might have use for them is just that--a fantasy. There is no evidence for it and the Bush administration does not accept it. The only people who are still holding on to that claim are people who can't let facts get in the way of their nationalism.

[Tim Elston]

I'm not familiar with the Ramos and Compean case, but your comments remind me of how southern power used to justify slavery with the argument that blacks were better off as slaves then they were as free men. Holding innocent men in prison indefinitely without charge is not justified by TV and ping-pong privileges.

Interesting attempt to twist my point by associating me with racists. Nice try.

Nope. I'm noting the common absurdity of justifying slavery and the indefinite detention of men without charge by appeal to their conditions of captivity.

Which men in Gitmo are innocent, and what is your evidence for their innocence?

Oh, I see, Gary. We presume the guilt of men whom we don't classify as either prisoners of war or domestic or international criminals, and we hold them apart from any legal jurisdiction to prevent anyone from defending their innocense. Isn't it pathetic how nationalism deranges the minds of otherwise good people?

Yes, I could do some Google searches and get the names of the many innocent men who were held for years in Guantanamo under THE MOST ARROGANT PRESUMPTION OF STATE POWER OVER HUMAN LIFE since the WWII internment of Japanese Americans, but if you think the burden is on me to prove their innocense, and not on the government to prove their guilt, then I don't even know what you think America is.

If, by "innocent" you mean not yet convicted, that's pretty lame in terms of war. Perhaps we should have just run this one like WWII where we killed our enemies in place instead of removing them from the field of battle, eliminating their ability to do us further harm, and providing them medical care and Chaplains of their own faith.

Sorry, Gary, but you don't get to play the POW card with me if the premise of the government's detainment policies is that the men are not POWs. Either have your cake or eat it, but enough with the double-speak in support of evil.

But, hey, let's not blame those who chose to fight a guerilla war, dressed as civilians and remove themselves from the civilized constraints of international conflict conventions -- just blame Cheney/Bush for putting these fine, upstanding, innocents in detention.

Gary, in Afghanistan we were allied with guerilla soldiers. We fought alongside men who were clothed in civilian garb. We fought a war in a country whose fighting factions did not wear military uniforms. We weren't above allying ourselves with such soldiers, so we have no right to deny such soldiers on the other side the right of POW status.

What do you think the government's proper course of action toward captured guerilla warriors is, anyway? To deny them prisoner of war status? To detain them beyond the reach of the laws of conflict and international law? To claim the right to detain them without charge so long as a war defined such that it never ends continues?

And what about the men who are innocent even of defending their own country against invasion? Why are they still in prison? Why did the Supreme Court have to force the Executive Branch to allow these men to defend themselves against non-existent charges? Why do you not care about our government holding innocent men in prison for years on end without legal recourse?

[Full Quiver]

Tim, I agree with you on Iraq and I am very much a conservative.

We got distracted and Bin Laden has loved it.

[Pastor Gary]

We presume the guilt of men whom we don't classify as either prisoners of war or domestic or international criminals, and we hold them apart from any legal jurisdiction to prevent anyone from defending their innocense. Isn't it pathetic how nationalism deranges the minds of otherwise good people?

Okay.

You are right. America is a horrible, unfair, imperialistic, baby-killing, war-mongering country that doesn't deserve to take up space on the planet. We should demand that the POTUS-ANOINTED hand over the keys to the country to some really honorable, deserving nation and go out of business.

Oh, WRETCHED disgusting people are we.