Irthnvesl's complaint about dave c's devotional

[Tim Elston]

I've missed out! WHEW!!!!

Hey, Tim, I follow you completely. I'm on lunch and can't write at length, but was dying to get back into the drama. Thanks for your reply. Intelligent, caring, and constructive, as usual.

First, yes, I understand that I'm on the outs in terms of social identity. That's one of those little realities about life that are inescapable. If it weren't based on religion, it would be based on something else. And, in fact, identity comes on many different bases. So, yes, I'm screwed with regard to the networks and relationships that matter to me, but that's life. There are a lot of things about life that I would change if I had the power to change them. I can't. Life sucks. Too bad. Life's great. Yay. It's a mix. We all live with it. It doesn't always feel good, especially when it comes to being displaced from basic identity, even touching on identity within one's own family. But, oh well, tears can get you only so far. Pick up and buck up. Above all, care. Care about the people who are hurt and confused about things about you that they can't understand and that you can't control. It sucks, but caring matters and people matter. The truth matters, people matter. Now where's the easy world?

Second, nobody or no group has a monopoly on justice, truth, ethics, or morality, when it comes to matters of the world. I am here debating politics. Christians, one and all, bring what your faith has to offer in the debate about what is right in that sphere. I so happen to be a post-Christian, which means that my ethics and morals are deeply informed by Christian tradition. We have a lot of common ground on which to discuss truth and justice, as it pertains to the world. I can even put on your hat from time to time and understand, for example, how your eschatology may affect your foreign policy, and because I know that hat well I can offer perspectives on it. I am not here cutting anyone down for their Christian faith. In fact, I respect Christian faith. Some people have too small of minds to comprehend what Christianity is to me as a human being. You don't turn the first forty years of your life off. You don't stop being who you are. But none of what people understand about that matters. I'm not here debating religion. Yes, I make an occasional comment or two, assuming the paradigm, but for the most part it's not my bag anymore. And for sure I simply do not push my belief or unbelief about the fundamentals of Christian faith here. I'm not here for that. I am a human being and I need company. Many of your comments, good and intelligent as they were, seemed to imply that I have been debating doctrine. No, I have been debating politics. And that sphere is open to all Americans, Christian or not. And since we share moral and ethical structures from a vast common tradition, we are able to speak meaningfully and challengingly to each other about that. Awesome. Church, come into the discussion. Lay your faith bare. Bring it forward. Maybe what you think is truth about this or that policy, or this or that politician, is more bigotry than not. We have common ground on which to discuss that, and I am not an illegitimate participant in the discussions that I have been having on this forum.

Nothing elegant or efficient about that stream of consciousness, but I'm writing quickly, without the kind of deliberation I like to put into writing. But, lastly I want to say that just because a person's faith were right, and mine wrong, does not preclude the possibility that he has a pathology. Pathologies come in all shapes and sizes. Some, I suspect, are religiously fanatical, controlling, harrassing. Few people on this board have consistently demonstrated an inability to do anything but berate me. Religious leaders, yes, Christian leaders, can sometimes be the worst pathological offenders. In this regard whether Scooter is right propositionally is beside the point of his conduct toward me. In my experience of him he is pathologically hostile.

Anyway, need to save some lunch time for eating. Tim, it is always a pleasure reading your writing. I enjoy fresh air free from pathology.

[Pastor Gary]

I enjoy fresh air free from pathology.

You do understand, don't you, that references to those who post here as pathological because they find you a contrarian is a huge contributing factor to being "on the outs in terms of social identity"?

You ARE a contrarian. You post on a board that is predominantly politically, socially and spiritually conservative, that is dominated by middle-class, middle-America types, and you seem to resent the fact that the worldview is not that of center-left academia. It is what it is, and looking down your nose with distaste at those you consider your lessers is not endearing.

One is "on the outs in terms of social identity" by the choices one makes.

[Tim Elston]

you seem to resent the fact that the worldview is not that of center-left academia.

Sorry, Gary, I'm a conservative, and I said Scooter was pathological, not everyone.

[Tim Elston]

And, for that matter, this drama broke out as an attack by Scooter on Irthnvesl, evidence that the issue is not whether someone believes or doesn't. Scooter's pathology is independent of issues regarding me. Irthnvesl has been more kind and friendly to people on this board than Scooter and a few others ever thought of being (not you, Shellie).

And if anyone thinks that I can't handle myself with regard to anyone here, including pathological controllers, they are mistaken. But when a new guy comes on here and starts getting the treatment, I think he at least deserves to be helped. And I don't give a rat's you-know-what what the southern code of honor is.

[Pastor Gary]

you seem to resent the fact that the worldview is not that of center-left academia.

Sorry, Gary, I'm a conservative, and I said Scooter was pathological, not everyone.

Since I KNOW Scooter, and have broken bread with Scooter, and have seen him in action, I can personally attest that you are wrong. His interactions with you are not friendly, because he finds everything you are and believe to be anathema to him. Why does that make him pathological? He doesn't care for you because you represent everything he works against, politically and spiritually. He doesn't see you as enlightened and evolved, but as deluded and deceived... reprobate. You are not so far from your past that you can't understand that.

[MacUser]

Tim,
I so enjoy watching you work.

But as you have already accepted.. all of your positions are transitional based upon immediate events and will change based on the next problem.

That's the beauty of it.

[Jennifer Smith]

you seem to resent the fact that the worldview is not that of center-left academia.

Sorry, Gary, I'm a conservative, and I said Scooter was pathological, not everyone.

Since I KNOW Scooter, and have broken bread with Scooter, and have seen him in action, I can personally attest that you are wrong. His interactions with you are not friendly, because he finds everything you are and believe to be anathema to him. Why does that make him pathological? He doesn't care for you because you represent everything he works against, politically and spiritually. He doesn't see you as enlightened and evolved, but as deluded and deceived... reprobate. You are not so far from your past that you can't understand that.

I'd agree, I know scooter a little bit too, from J2 and from Florida... I feel that at times when he is confrontative, it is still with humor and caring, not generally harsh. Shellie and scooter both can be blunt and straightforward, but I believe they care about others.

[Susie Hamilton]

I also have met Scooter and was very impressed with him. He is a very caring person. I have had the pleasure to talk with Shellie on the phone and thru email and pm. She has helped me with a problem in the past with very good advice. Tim, you have a very different viewpoint than we do. It kind of reminds me of the story of the blind men and the elephant. I care about you and pray for you.

[Full Quiver]

I too have met Scooter and he was very kind, polite, caring, and forgiving towards me. It would have been the perfect opportunity to punch me in the mouth for some of the childish things I directed towards him and his family in years past. Had he been pathological I think there would have been a throw down at the Big River Grill.

[scooter]

I too have met Scooter and he was very kind, polite, caring, and forgiving towards me. It would have been the perfect opportunity to punch me in the mouth for some of the childish things I directed towards him and his family in years past. Had he been pathological I think there would have been a throw down at the Big River Grill.

Response: We should have just armwrestled.

BTW thanks for the kind remarks from all.

Tim assumes much. I bait him. Sorry Tim. You got punk'd.

[Tim Elston]

Tim assumes much. I bait him. Sorry Tim. You got punk'd.

I'm not sure whether that's an apology, a dig, both, or what. But I do know that it's the nicest toned thing you've ever said to me. For that I thank you. I accept your "Sorry Tim," couched though it be.

So, are we going to still be able to argue, or does this somehow mess that up? I'm sure we'll find a way.

[scooter]

Tim assumes much. I bait him. Sorry Tim. You got punk'd.

I'm not sure whether that's an apology, a dig, both, or what. But I do know that it's the nicest toned thing you've ever said to me. For that I thank you. I accept your "Sorry Tim." I really do.

So, are we going to still be able to argue, or does this somehow mess that up?

Response: Tim I feel for you I really do.

I weigh your impact upon others as a leader and a Bishop in reality.

Though I respect your ability and intellect, I guard against the fact that you are used as a tool, a puppet and a pawn, well maybe a black knight.

I have many "sinner" friends. However I don't allow them to impact my circle of influence for bad. I watch over that aspect of my life. Jude2 is a part of that circle of influence, but in a rather playful fashion for me.

You say you have matured, so have I.

Exposing the fact of your current spiritual condition, will help others in assessing your input. I'm sure you will find plenty of "Christians" who will attempt to love you into surrender.

I, however, feel the need to mark your input as one would a wolf amongst sheep.

[Tim Elston]

Tim assumes much. I bait him. Sorry Tim. You got punk'd.

I'm not sure whether that's an apology, a dig, both, or what. But I do know that it's the nicest toned thing you've ever said to me. For that I thank you. I accept your "Sorry Tim." I really do.

So, are we going to still be able to argue, or does this somehow mess that up?

Response: Tim I feel for you I really do.

I weigh your impact upon others as a leader and a Bishop in reality.

Though I respect your ability and intellect, I guard against the fact that you are used as a tool, a puppet and a pawn, well maybe a black knight.

I have many "sinner" friends. However I don't allow them to impact my circle of influence for bad. I watch over that aspect of my life. Jude2 is a part of that circle of influence, but in a rather playful fashion for me.

You say you have matured, so have I.

Exposing the fact of your current spiritual condition, will help others in assessing your input. I'm sure you will find plenty of "Christians" who will attempt to love you into surrender.

I, however, feel the need to mark your input as one would a wolf amongst sheep.

Well, others can forget about loving me into surrender. How about just loving me? I'm not interested in surrendering to anything but the truth, and obviously I differ about what the truth is. I didn't stop being a Christian because I "didn't want to surrender" to what I already loved and what already defined me. So, if love is some sort of means to an end, forget it. If it's something worthwhile for its own sake, I'll take it.

You can consider me a wolf among sheep if you want. But I don't accept anyone unjustly harrassing me. I don't like people misjudging me, but if their perspective requires it, that's their problem that I have to live with. At that point it's my choice whether to be gracious to them anyway and try to sympathize with why they have to label me as they do, or just get out of their lives. I don't like just walking out of people's lives. I don't have anything to be ashamed of. Yes, it's awkward, but if I let other people's shame paradigms define me, where does that leave me? I've learned that I have to face the tension and let other people deal with my presence rather than abscond because their problem with me makes them uncomfortable. It's better for me to let people adjust to me rather than to lose them as friends. I, too, have had to learn to respect the tension and respect boundaries. My issues are not the important thing. What is important is for people to have one another, to live with one another, to be in social relationships. The bottom line is that humans are social creatures, and there is something positive about facing the challenges of interrelating as opposed to running from each other. There is probably a happy medium to that principle, because obviously people group in social units--birds of a feather--but still, there is something to toughing it out rather than simply walking away from relationships that have meaning. And what I really mean here is that I need people to be in my life.

Anyway, Scooter, please try to find it in your heart to relate to me as a fellow human being. As you said, you have non-Christian friends in your non-cyber life. Try to think of me as one of them. Not even as a friend, just as someone you would talk to civily at work or in the store. I appreciate the kind way that you communicated your concerns in this last post.