Why do some people.....

[TW]

I'm just thankful that there was someone "righteous" enough (even if self appointed) to give me my annual reminder of how despicable a sinner I am.


TW

[Poimen]

I can't figure out how you teach a child to believe in Santa without lying to them.

And there it is!

The question then becomes are we more willing to provide an occasion for the flesh, permitting ourselves to lie because it's fun, culturally acceptable, magical, or whatever ... OR are we going to walk uprightly before the Lord, with clean lips AND a clean heart.

If any of you are teaching or permitting your kids to believe that a mythical figure named Santa exists or brings gifts, then you are lying to your children. Whether we consider it harmless or not is beside the point. God says plainly "Do not lie."

Ought we to obey God or self?

I encourage you to try God's way and see if it is not just as fun or better! In fact, make the emphasis on giving gifts (not receiving them), and let the Lord use your generosity to build their character.

[bibleguy]

If I may ask one question:

Why is it so easy for many to casually dismiss the Old Testament examples, in favor of justifying the adoption of pagan rituals, the origins of which are well known and documented? I am not accusing, I am curious.

Paul told Timothy, “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

I get that some may think me self-righteous, or a meddler. Others see my stance as legalistic. "I like it," or "I think its pretty," or "I see no harm in it," as reasons for justifying a teaching seems very flimsy to me.

While some mock the denouncement of the Christmas Tree based on Scripture, I have yet to hear Scriptural support of the same.

I'm just wondering, How do we justify the adoption of customs well-documented and openly known to have originated among the heathen?

[bibleguy]

I can't figure out how you teach a child to believe in Santa without lying to them.

And there it is!

The question then becomes are we more willing to provide an occasion for the flesh, permitting ourselves to lie because it's fun, culturally acceptable, magical, or whatever ... OR are we going to walk uprightly before the Lord, with clean lips AND a claen heart.

If any of you are teaching or permitting your kids to believe that a mythical figure named Santa exists and brings gifts, then you are lying to your children. Whether we consider it harmless or not is beside the point. God says plainly "Do not lie."

Ought we to obey God or self?

I encourage you to try God's way and see if it is not just as fun or better! In fact, make the emphasis on giving gifts (not receiving them), and let the Lord use your geneorisity to build their character.

In fact, the Bible shows that to be the proof positive of God's people. Do you want God to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are His?

“For he said, Surely they [are] my people, children [that] will not lie: so he was their Saviour.” (Isa 63:8 AV)

How should He then react when we "celebrate" that Savior's birth, by including a "fantasy" in our celebratory custom?

[Poimen]

Bibleguy, I think there is much truth in what you are attempting here. I see the error in the embracing of cultural things ot the point of excusing sin.

However, short of that, (as Rambo implied) this is a meats and drink issue. iF you can celebrate Christmas without sinning that is your liberty. If you choose to absatin that is your liberty.

I do not condemn Christmas, I condemn sinfulness. Lying is wrong. If you lie to your child you are violating the clear teaching of Scripture. But, you enjoy holiday meals, gift wrapping and giving, lights, even trees, that's fine -- as long as you are not worshipping them.

One eats. One abstains. God receives both.

[RamboPreacher]

Bibleguy, I think there is much truth in what you are attempting here. I see the error in the embracing of cultural things ot the point of excusing sin.

However, short of that, (as Rambo implied) this is a meats and drink issue. iF you can celebrate Christmas without sinning that is your liberty. If you choose to absatin that is your liberty.

I do not condemn Christmas, I condemn sinfulness. Lying is wrong. If you lie to your child you are violating the clear teaching of Scripture. But, you enjoy holiday meals, gift wrapping and giving, lights, even trees, that's fine -- as long as you are not worshipping them.

One eats. One abstains. God receives both.

zactamungo. :0

[pastorables]

Bah hum bug........Why don't you people just throw the tooth fairy under the bus as well!

Don't mess with the Molinator! Actually, we do Secret Pal for our son's tooth exchanges.

pa

[pastorables]

Has anyone mentioned the Christmas tree yet? (I'm not opposed. I just wondered if it has been brought into the discussion.)

Jeremiah 10:1-5 and 8,9. Let us see what Jeremiah states with the King James Version being the basis of the translation:

"Hear you the word which the Lord speaks unto you, O house of Israel. Thus says the Lord. Learn not the way of the heathen and be not dismayed at the signs of the heaven; for the nations are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain. For one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it [the tree] with silver and with gold. They fasten it [the tree] with nails and with hammers that it move not. They [such trees] are upright as the palm tree, but speak not. The tree [KJV: stock] is a doctrine of vanities. Silver is spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder. Blue and purple is their clothing. They [the trees] are all the work of cunning men."

One wonders what Jeremiah, if he were alive today, would say about all the Christmas trees that now decorate our Christian homes and Christian churches? Would he sound a similar alarm like he did among the ancient Jewish population in Jerusalem? He probably would. And knowing how the apostles of Christ said to flee idolatry, the apostles would probably be equally against perpetuating these heathen customs. But as for the preachers and religious leaders today, they condone the whole thing and delight in the pagan festivities.

[pastorables]

I love Santa myself, but I also remember learning about the original St. Nicholas when I was younger and appreciating how fascinating and good a man he was. Either way, I love 'em both.

We've taught our son (7) the true story of Saint Nicholas and the spirit of giving since he was old enough to ask. We've always told the truth, while at the same time giving our son the latitude to choose to believe the fantasy if he desired. As a result, he has a very balanced view of the whole Santa concept, but still enjoys leaving milk and cookies.

pa

[Poimen]

Has anyone mentioned the Christmas tree yet? (I'm not opposed. I just wondered if it has been brought into the discussion.)

It was briefly mentioned by Bible Guy.

I don't recall the source, but understanding of the passage in Jeremiah is of skilled work in fashoning idols from trees, precious metals, and decking them with fine clothing, etc.

It is an examintaion of the human intention and creative ability in forming a lifeless God as a proof of it's fallacy. As if to ask, how can man create a god?

[Tim Elston]

I'm just thankful that there was someone "righteous" enough (even if self appointed) to give me my annual reminder of how despicable a sinner I am.

TW, is that a bit much? To the Lord he regards it. To the Lord you don't regard it. There is room for charity, no?

[bibleguy]

Has anyone mentioned the Christmas tree yet? (I'm not opposed. I just wondered if it has been brought into the discussion.)

Jeremiah 10:1-5 and 8,9. Let us see what Jeremiah states with the King James Version being the basis of the translation:

"Hear you the word which the Lord speaks unto you, O house of Israel. Thus says the Lord. Learn not the way of the heathen and be not dismayed at the signs of the heaven; for the nations are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain. For one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it [the tree] with silver and with gold. They fasten it [the tree] with nails and with hammers that it move not. They [such trees] are upright as the palm tree, but speak not. The tree [KJV: stock] is a doctrine of vanities. Silver is spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder. Blue and purple is their clothing. They [the trees] are all the work of cunning men."

One wonders what Jeremiah, if he were alive today, would say about all the Christmas trees that now decorate our Christian homes and Christian churches? Would he sound a similar alarm like he did among the ancient Jewish population in Jerusalem? He probably would. And knowing how the apostles of Christ said to flee idolatry, the apostles would probably be equally against perpetuating these heathen customs. But as for the preachers and religious leaders today, they condone the whole thing and delight in the pagan festivities.

I have, of course referenced this passage in relation to the Christmas tree. Certainly, I have heard (and entertained) Brother Poimen's comment that the passage refers fashioning an idol (shaping it, etc.). My initial response to that statement is a simple referral back to the intent of the passage: not to learn heathen ways, which does certainly include Christmas trees.

As to the tree, maybe the Germans weren't that good at carving figurines. And even the heathens didn't seem to "worship" them (the common defense for their use among modern evangelicals: "we don't worship them"). Rather, they used them as a talisman.

You see, in the winter time, the pagans believed that the evil spirits of dark and cold killed living things, like people and animals caught outside, and, of course, the trees (as evidenced by the lack of leaves, etc.) But there were certain trees and other flora (Mistletoe), that apparently had some magical (the magic of Christmas?) to ward off the evil spirits.

So they cut them down, and brought them into their homes and temples for protection, and for the celebration of the winter solstice. They also "fashioned" wreaths to put on the windows and doors for the same purpose. And don't forget to deck the halls with boughs of holly (another evergreen). (No doubt they also appreciated the decorative quality of all this, on top of the magic).

The evergreen nature of both the fir tree, as well as the mistletoe, also represented fertility qualities to pagans: thus the "kissing under the mistletoe."

In a "nut"shell, that's the history. While we can make all kinds of excuses, no, I don't think Jeremiah would approve of the custom having permeated Christian culture. And I can only imagine what Paul would say. To tie this to the eating of meats is, as far as I am concerned, a stretch, since eating meat is not a pagan tradition (See Genesis 9:3). While the pagans may sell meat involved in sacrificial rites, meat itself was given to be eaten by God. Since you may or may not be aware of its origins, then its okay, but if you know (for the heathen man's sake) we are exhorted to abstain.

But the customs involved with Christmas aren't mere human activity, but of openly and deep rooted historical paganism. While I would rather not be a party-pooper, this is, to me, not a meats and drinks issue. Many of you would be opposed to someone drinking an "adult" beverage, while seeing no harm in the yule log.

At least you can find a few Scriptures that back the drinking of an adult beverage...

Please, don't take this for anything but what it is... a burden for the people of God. A cry of love that you draw nigh to Him with more than your lips, but with your hearts also. That you forsake the ways of the world, and learn His ways.

[crispfin]

We've taught our son (7) the true story of Saint Nicholas and the spirit of giving since he was old enough to ask. We've always told the truth, while at the same time giving our son the latitude to choose to believe the fantasy if he desired. As a result, he has a very balanced view of the whole Santa concept, but still enjoys leaving milk and cookies.

pa

That sounds really cool! But I must wonder...what happens to the cookies? Is there a jolly pagan consuming them?

[TW]

bibleguy,

If you are going to teach us history please get it right. Much of what you are saying is based loosely in fact, but much has been distorted in order to support a particular viewpoint. A more balanced view of the history of the Christmas tree can be found here:
www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

No one is disputing the pagan origins of many of our "Christian Traditions." But that's the whole point, they are TRADITIONS! They are not worshiped or elevated to the same level as God. They have been absorbed into the Christian faith as a result of converting the pagans. The best way to get the pagans to understand Christianity was to use symbols that they were already familiar with. Jeremiah was concerned with the possible pollution of the Jews by pagan influnce. He was not concerned with evangilism to the pagans. To use this passage as a prohibition against learning the ways of the pagans (New Testament time period) is apples and oranges.

Since Christmas is not a high holy feast; but rather for my family, a time of gathering and renewal of family bonds, I will continue to celebrate it along with all the traditions that accompany it.


TW

[bibleguy]

No one is disputing the pagan origins of many of our "Christian Traditions." But that's the whole point, they are TRADITIONS! They are not worshiped or elevated to the same level as God. They have been absorbed into the Christian faith as a result of converting the pagans. The best way to get the pagans to understand Christianity was to use symbols that they were already familiar with. Jeremiah was concerned with the possible pollution of the Jews by pagan influnce. He was not concerned with evangilism to the pagans. To use this passage as a prohibition against learning the ways of the pagans (New Testament time period) is apples and oranges.

Thanks for the link.

At risk of making a pest of myself...

TW, you said that Jeremiah decried paganism because he was heading off pagan pollution. Are you saying that we shouldn't have similar concerns?

Also that Jeremiah wasn't thinking about evangelizing pagans. Proselytizing at all costs was rebuked by Jesus. “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves” (Matt. 23:15). I dismiss immediately any notion that we can make good Christians out of pagans by adopting their customs for ourselves. Nowhere is there even one iota that Jesus, Peter, Paul, or any of the early church recommended adopting even "innocent" pagan traditions as a valid way of reaching the lost!

Paul used the "UNKNOWN GOD" marker as an object lesson, then told them that the time for ignorance was over. How much more today, among professing Christians.

The religious tolerance site virtually confirmed all that I have said up to this point. And, speaking of tradition, (again I ask):

Why do we hold steadfastly to adopted pagan traditions? Why not practice the traditions of the Scripture? or the traditions of the leaders that made a great stand for against the adoption of such pagan practices(as so well detailed in the link TW provided): men like Tertullian, Oliver Cromwell, William Bradford, English Puritans and the Pilgrims?

Why can't we carry the banner of these devout men, who strongly opposed watering down the message with pagan customs and imagery? If we are to be a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, we must at least CONSIDER that adopted pagan customs prohibit such a goal from ever being reached!