Homosexuality is...

[bibleguy]

Two Things:

1. Spiritual Problem
2. Free Choice

This is a pretty good assessment.

To compare this to retardation, or other physical deficiency, is nonsense, . To call it genetic is nonsense, except for the sin nature that we inherit. We are all born with sin. homosexuality is just another expression of this in-born sin. It is perversion. It won't get you to hell quicker than lying, stealing, or other sins, but it can't be justified by saying it's who you are, or how you're born.

[RamboPreacher]

to say that this is purely a spiritual issue and only a free choice is nonsense.
(seewhatididthar?)

We live in a fallen world, and to say that there are no genetic problems (that are based from the fall, in my opinion, as the fall effected the entire kosmos, and creation, and not just the spiritual nature of anthopan), is a blind assessment.

When people say that it is ONLY about choice, and purely a spiritual matter, alone - I wonder if they have any "real" experience with a homosexual person. let alone one that truly has to deal with and challenge this in their life.

Using Heroin is a choice of free-will, alone, too, then - right? can we make wide and sweeping statements like that? in this example, yes, it is perhaps a choice initially, so maybe not a good comparison, but once addicted - can they just choose to go cold turkey and quit? no, there are actual, physical dependencies that need to be dealt with.

as I mentioned initially, I don't happen tp believe there is a gay-gene, but I don't doubt that it may come to that and be discovered. But that is NOT what God created. we ahve bodies that are not perfected or glorified. we have bodies that are a product of the Adamic fall.

so to say that it is a simple matter, whatever it is, is a wide-brush stroke definition that can not work for all cases.

[Pastor Bill]

I am diabetic, it's genetic, so is this the way God created me? No, he did not make me diseased and imperfect, sin did.

Some people are born more prone to alcoholism, homosexuality, drug abuse, tempers that cause rage and bring about sin.

None of this goes against the Bible or that these things are sin. Yes they have a CHOICE to act upon those things, but it is harder for some than others.

and again much of the temptation also comes from poor gender examples, abuse, etc.

Yes sin is always a choice, but there is alot more to the temptation that brings about that choice sometimes as well.

[RamboPreacher]

I am diabetic, it's genetic, so is this the way God created me? No, he did not make me diseased and imperfect, sin did....

zactamungo.

[RaceRunner]

to say that this is purely a spiritual issue and only a free choice is nonsense.
(seewhatididthar?)

We live in a fallen world, and to say that there are no genetic problems (that are based from the fall, in my opinion, as the fall effected the entire kosmos, and creation, and not just the spiritual nature of anthopan), is a blind assessment.

When people say that it is ONLY about choice, and purely a spiritual matter, alone - I wonder if they have any "real" experience with a homosexual person. let alone one that truly has to deal with and challenge this in their life.

Using Heroin is a choice of free-will, alone, too, then - right? can we make wide and sweeping statements like that? in this example, yes, it is perhaps a choice initially, so maybe not a good comparison, but once addicted - can they just choose to go cold turkey and quit? no, there are actual, physical dependencies that need to be dealt with.

as I mentioned initially, I don't happen tp believe there is a gay-gene, but I don't doubt that it may come to that and be discovered. But that is NOT what God created. we ahve bodies that are not perfected or glorified. we have bodies that are a product of the Adamic fall.

so to say that it is a simple matter, whatever it is, is a wide-brush stroke definition that can not work for all cases.

1. Relativism
2. Humanism



The ONLY Cure:
The Redeeming, Cleansing, Delivering Blood of the Lamb.

[RamboPreacher]

1. Relativism
2. Humanism

you are wrong in your assessment of my post.

The ONLY Cure:
The Redeeming, Cleansing, Delivering Blood of the Lamb.

I absolutely agree!

[Shellie]

Pastor Bill wrote:

Some people are born more prone to alcoholism, homosexuality, drug abuse, tempers that cause rage and bring about sin.

And your proof for this is where? Please don't say doctors and scientists either. Sin can't be seen beneath a microscope regardless of what people with a gazillion letters behind their name say. Please don't say some texbook either. It was the same men in the sentence above that wrote those books.

People are not born more prone to one sin over another. Their environment and nuturing, (or lack thereof) make them more prone to certain sins and behaviors. "Cycles" are simply what the child grows up with and is exposed to.

I do not have a problem with rage and never have. Both of my parents have pretty even tempers and I was not exposed to that. But both or one of my parents drank, smoked cigs, smoked pot, and did drugs. Guess what was my sins and/or habits when I struggled with sin? You got it....those things I was exposed to.

We are born sinners with a weakness to the flesh. We are not born prone to be specific sinners. Our sinful flesh is drawn and comfortable with those things we have been exposed to.

The more I read here, I more I worry that the world is shaping the church instead of the church shaping the world.

[RaceRunner]

I am diabetic, it's genetic, so is this the way God created me? No, he did not make me diseased and imperfect, sin did.

Some people are born more prone to alcoholism, homosexuality, drug abuse, tempers that cause rage and bring about sin.

None of this goes against the Bible or that these things are sin. Yes they have a CHOICE to act upon those things, but it is harder for some than others.

and again much of the temptation also comes from poor gender examples, abuse, etc.

Yes sin is always a choice, but there is alot more to the temptation that brings about that choice sometimes as well.

Rom 1:24-28 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


Also, Diabetes is not genetic. Nature: Your family may have "risk factors" as in a predispostion to being overweight ...which is only one factor in diabetes. Nurture: Family history and environment of "lack of self-discipline in diet". Choice is still very much a factor. http://www.diabeticlive.com/articles/32 ... Page1.html


edited to add Rom 1:24-28

[Tracy]

I think that it would be incorrect to say that God doesn't make people sick or have infirmites. The Bible shows repeatedly that He does indeed.

Ex 4:11 is but one place that shows that God is sovereign even in sickness and physical infirmity:

11Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? ESV

He really is in control.

And Romans 1:26 ff shows that homosexuality is judgment from God. He gives people over to it because of sin.

I am simply pointing out that God Himself says that He is sovereign even over sickness and homosexuality. This does not remove responsibility, nor may we blame God. But there is great gain in recognizing the Bible's insistence on the sovereignty of God in creation.

To say that God never makes someone sick, or that He has nothing to do with infirmity and even homosexuality is just the opposite of what the Bible says, and says clearly. Obviously, discussion about how He reigns over these things can go on forever--the point is that He does and His hand is there. He says so Himself.


That would raise me to $.04.

I'm off to do more planting and some manure hauling. Y'all come.

[Pastor Bill]

to say that this is purely a spiritual issue and only a free choice is nonsense.
(seewhatididthar?)

We live in a fallen world, and to say that there are no genetic problems (that are based from the fall, in my opinion, as the fall effected the entire kosmos, and creation, and not just the spiritual nature of anthopan), is a blind assessment.

When people say that it is ONLY about choice, and purely a spiritual matter, alone - I wonder if they have any "real" experience with a homosexual person. let alone one that truly has to deal with and challenge this in their life.

Using Heroin is a choice of free-will, alone, too, then - right? can we make wide and sweeping statements like that? in this example, yes, it is perhaps a choice initially, so maybe not a good comparison, but once addicted - can they just choose to go cold turkey and quit? no, there are actual, physical dependencies that need to be dealt with.

as I mentioned initially, I don't happen tp believe there is a gay-gene, but I don't doubt that it may come to that and be discovered. But that is NOT what God created. we ahve bodies that are not perfected or glorified. we have bodies that are a product of the Adamic fall.

so to say that it is a simple matter, whatever it is, is a wide-brush stroke definition that can not work for all cases.

1. Relativism
2. Humanism

I don't think you are understanding what he's saying, OR you do not understand those terms.

He is not saying homosexuality is not a sin, or that it is excused in any way (as those views would) only that the temptation/root cause is more than a simple choice, but the temptation can come from some very strong influences that make it SEEM to many to be not a choice at all. WE as Christians know that all sin is by choice, but that's hard to understand when you know more the forces of temptation than you know the forgiveness of God. If you want to reach these people for Christ, you must understand their struggles. I have a close friend who has come out of this, temptations still arise, but she is victorious in Christ. She will tell you now that she chooses to be free of this sin, but back then she would not have seen it as a choice, but as who she was.

The ONLY Cure:
The Redeeming, Cleansing, Delivering Blood of the Lamb.

On this I 100% agree, but we can't drive people away because we refuse to understand their struggles and fail to meet them where they are. These temptations are real, they can come from real sources, not just "they made a choice", but often they feel trapped, they feel it's more natural to them (due to biological, mental and social issues they may not even know they are dealing with). Look back on the sins in your own life, how often was it as simple as a choice? Even heterosexual sins the temptation comes biologically from natural hormones and urges. If someone falls to those sins, we recognize the temptation, and work with them to recognize and protect themselves from it, but for homosexuals, who probably have more issues pushing them to such extremes we turn a blind eye to their struggles and blow it off as a simple choice they made.

That will never reach them, Christ was not ashamed to sit down with sinners where they lived, and show them the light, too bad today's church isn't more like Him.

[RaceRunner]

And Romans 1:26 ff shows that homosexuality is judgment from God. He gives people over to it because of sin.

(edit) Tracy, I'm not disagreeing with you, just expounding, I guess.....

God by the very nature of His Sovereignty...will not negate His Gift of Free Will.

Which is what Rom 1:24-28 proves.

Because of man's free will and choice to embrace and wallow in sin....God GAVE them up to it and GAVE them over to their sin. (edit: which Strong's says means "surrender(ed"))

Why? Because they:
lived in uncleanness through lusts
changed the truth of God into a lie:
worshipped and served the creater, more than the Creator.
would not retain God in their knowledge.

God will not force a person to serve Him. When they will NOT.
God can and will "give them up" to the very sin they lust after and it's punishment / recompence of error if they go far enough. His Spirit will not always strive with man.

Rom 1:24-28 shows the downward slide into depravity. (edit)

1. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

2. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

3. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

[RaceRunner]

1. Relativism
2. Humanism

I don't think you are understanding what he's saying, OR you do not understand those terms.

I do understand those terms , but I may have addressed that particular post to the wrong person.

[Dr. Ron]

I have tried to stay out of this one for a number of reasons.

But here goes;

Until the late 60s or early 70s, the DSM ( therpist's bible) listed Homosexuality as a mental disorder/genetic aboration. It gave several case studies as a basis to it's conclusion. It was also considered a felony punishable by imprisonment....sadly many gays liked that idea (target rich environment.)

In the late 70s/early 80s, it was changed and left out the "mental disorder" and then decided it was a "social disorder/genetic aboration". Still a felony in most states.

In the late 80s, all mention of mental issue and "disorders" were dropped and it became only a genetic issue....no longer considered an aboration.

The point is that research didn't bear out the mental illness position, nor the genetic "aboration" position. It became more an idea of genetic (dna) predisposition.

There is certainly enough study now to agree with a "partial" belief in a gentic predisposition. Not the same as alcholism, but rather a genetic issue that shows more female hormone in some boys than others, more male hormone in some females than others.

Levels of testosterone can be quantified ....as well as levels of female hormones.

I have known many men and women who have suffered greatly because of their "proclivity" toward members of the same sex. You would not want me to name people whom you all might know that deal with this issue ....and many times not successfully...

I deal with this community every day in my business. I know their hearts and minds. Many of them are wonderful christians who are homosexual (non-practicing) but not "delivered" either. They live one day at a time just as the drug addict/alcholic..........or even me and you.

It is not totally a spiritual issue....but the spirit does have a great influence on their "recovery"....They generally feel that christian recovery is not offered because of Homophobia among christians.

The "love the sinner , hate the sin" mantra is nothing more than hatred cloacked in religious dogma. They are seeking friends to confide in and people with whom they can find a wholesome relationship.

You who are the domatics among us.......show me what YOU are doing to help them....I will listen. Some of my strongest members and best prayer warriors are "former gays" who are now married and have children and are living good lives.....but it wasn't all because of "deliverance". It has taken much work....but they are doing well......

Love you all......you all need to love all too.

[RamboPreacher]

1. Relativism
2. Humanism

I don't think you are understanding what he's saying, OR you do not understand those terms.

I do understand those terms , but I may have addressed that particular post to the wrong person.

then please explain. (since Pastor Bill seemed to get exactly what I said/posted, but you apparently didn't)

[Pastor Bill]

So Shellie, you do not believe in heredity? I agree that nurture is much stronger than nature in these things, but I don't completely reject the possibility of a person's nature playing a role in this either.

Please don't read this as I am saying people are born this way, that's NOT what I'm saying, but I do know of people who have inherited traits from parents they never knew, or didn't meet till they were adults, there is some validity to natural heredity, that doesn't change anything, and it doesn't excuse anything, it is just one of the claw holds that Satan uses.

I do agree that the environment and upbringing are a MUCH stronger influence (and I have said that from the beginning) but I don't see the need to an influence that may also be there. Just deal with it, and drop the excuses.

Especially if we want to minister to someone who is caught up in this, we won't reach them by attacking their understandings of why, only by showing them the whys don't matter and pale in comparison with the Love God has for them.