Homosexuality is...

[Pastor Bill]

I am diabetic, it's genetic, so is this the way God created me? No, he did not make me diseased and imperfect, sin did.

Some people are born more prone to alcoholism, homosexuality, drug abuse, tempers that cause rage and bring about sin.

None of this goes against the Bible or that these things are sin. Yes they have a CHOICE to act upon those things, but it is harder for some than others.

and again much of the temptation also comes from poor gender examples, abuse, etc.

Yes sin is always a choice, but there is alot more to the temptation that brings about that choice sometimes as well.

Rom 1:24-28 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


Also, Diabetes is not genetic. Nature: Your family may have "risk factors" as in a predispostion to being overweight ...which is only one factor in diabetes. Nurture: Family history and environment of "lack of self-discipline in diet". Choice is still very much a factor. http://www.diabeticlive.com/articles/32 ... Page1.html


edited to add Rom 1:24-28

I agree with all those scriptures, I am not saying that homosexuality is right with God, only that this is ONE of the areas where this temptation can possibly come from. What brings about the temptation doesn't change the fact that we must walk away from temptation and seek God.

on the diabetes issue, yes it is genetic, if you do the research, they are not completely sure of the causes, they do see a higher rate in those that are overweight, but that's not always the case, most of my Dad's side of the family were VERY thin, and most were severely diabetic. My doctor has even commented that my diabetes is not from diet (although I am overweight, and we are working on that in order to help control the diabetes) but some people (even without the "risk factors") are just predisposed to it.

It's actually funny that in saying these things were not influenced by heredity you suggested that maybe my family was predisposed to being overweight. actually that's the same thing.

[Dr. Ron]

Good post Bill......gotta be that way....show them we care.

[RaceRunner]

I have tried to stay out of this one for a number of reasons.

But here goes;

Until the late 60s or early 70s, the DSM ( therpist's bible) listed Homosexuality as a mental disorder/genetic aboration. It gave several case studies as a basis to it's conclusion. It was also considered a felony punishable by imprisonment....sadly many gays liked that idea (target rich environment.)

In the late 70s/early 80s, it was changed and left out the "mental disorder" and then decided it was a "social disorder/genetic aboration". Still a felony in most states.

In the late 80s, all mention of mental issue and "disorders" were dropped and it became only a genetic issue....no longer considered an aboration.

The point is that research didn't bear out the mental illness position, nor the genetic "aboration" position. It became more an idea of genetic (dna) predisposition.

There is certainly enough study now to agree with a "partial" belief in a gentic predisposition. Not the same as alcholism, but rather a genetic issue that shows more female hormone in some boys than others, more male hormone in some females than others.

Levels of testosterone can be quantified ....as well as levels of female hormones.

I have known many men and women who have suffered greatly because of their "proclivity" toward members of the same sex. You would not want me to name people whom you all might know that deal with this issue ....and many times not successfully...

I deal with this community every day in my business. I know their hearts and minds. Many of them are wonderful christians who are homosexual (non-practicing) but not "delivered" either. They live one day at a time just as the drug addict/alcholic..........or even me and you.

It is not totally a spiritual issue....but the spirit does have a great influence on their "recovery"....They generally feel that christian recovery is not offered because of Homophobia among christians.

The "love the sinner , hate the sin" mantra is nothing more than hatred cloacked in religious dogma. They are seeking friends to confide in and people with whom they can find a wholesome relationship.

You who are the domatics among us.......show me what YOU are doing to help them....I will listen. Some of my strongest members and best prayer warriors are "former gays" who are now married and have children and are living good lives.....but it wasn't all because of "deliverance". It has taken much work....but they are doing well......

Love you all......you all need to love all too.

If you are in a burning house...you do not ask the fireman (your deliverer) to "just stand there and protect you" so you can continue living in your home. You MUST be delivered or die.

Our deliverance is through the Saving AND SANCTIFYING power of the Blood of Jesus Christ and the Power of the Holy Ghost indwelling within us.

1Th 4:3-4 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

concupiscence: a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

Mortify - akin to crucify? make dead.

We CAN BE INSTANTLY delivered from uncleaness, inordinate affections and evil concupiscence through the Sanctifying power of the Blood of Jesus.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gal 5:24,25 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If one really CARES about people trapped in this fiery problem...then more "firemen" would care enough to preach DELIVERANCE (instaneous Sanctification as a second definite work of GRACE) and not WORKING through the problem (progressive "sanctification"). If so...then a whole lifetime of grief and sorrow could be avoided.

[RamboPreacher]

bah - nevermind.
My prayers continue for those that are in this situation, whether they chose to directly or even if they don't think they chose.

[Pastor Bill]

AMEN Dr. Ron

We all struggle with sin, but sin that we may not personally have dealt with or that we do not personally understand the temptation towards is often difficult to minister to.

I don't have these temptations, but I know some who do, and they fight hard to stand strong and live the life God truly created them to be despite these struggles. For the alcoholic we give them support, encouragement, and recognize that they can overcome temptation. For the adulterer or promiscuous we do the same, for the sins we have dealt with in ourselves or in someone close to us, we understand and minister willingly with Grace.

But in the things that we have not dealt with, we often fall to our own lack of understanding and forget the grace and support to get through. So these either hide their struggles and suffer alone, or see the hypocrisy in our preferring one over another and turn away from the church.

No one here is saying that this sin is acceptable, but it is sin, and those struggling with it need our support and encouragement in His Grace, His Love, His Forgiveness, and in His Strength that will get them through.

Look at any sin in anyone's life, and you can usually see more than one reason behind it, personality, physical attributes, social upbringing, experiences, etc. So why argue those points when the real issue is getting past those things and finding Christ. As soon as you discount any one of those things, you will turn some away because "you just don't understand" and others will come, but get tripped up by things they are ignoring till they give up trying.

Those that struggle with these things are finding no help, because the ones who should be able to reach them with what they need aren't willing to try to understand their struggles, or help them to overcome them.

[Brian]

We are not born prone to be specific sinners.

I mostly agree that we are all effected by and could fall to any of the same sins that our brothers or siters are temped by, however.... were not some vessels created for honor and some for dishonor? I am not entirely sure how to apply that to real life and the individual sinner, but it does make me wonder if in fact some sin we were created to cary out for a purpose that is beyond my understanding.

Again, not saying that sin is "selective" but is it not so that some people just simply and plainly are not effected like others by the same temptations that the devil uses to corrupt God's creation(us).

But I'm definate not the one who says "they were born that way so it MUST be God because He created me." I'm not that guy.

[Dr. Ron]

Racerunner:

It would be nice if your illustration was valid.....alas it is not.

I understand as much as anyone about deliverance. I understand the biblical principles you have used.

I also know about the fact that your idea of "instantaneous santification" is not very well grounded in scripture nor is it very practical.

You seem to be saying that if one is truely sancitified they will not have a desire for sin.....nothing could be further from the truth.

I do not wish to be argumentative about all this.....just "show me the fruit".

To think that people don't have issues to work through is a "ostrich " view of the spiritual and physical world.

You cannot spiritualize flesh.

[Pastor Bill]

If you are in a burning house...you do not ask the fireman (your deliverer) to "just stand there and protect you" so you can continue living in your home. You MUST be delivered or die.

Our deliverance is through the Saving AND SANCTIFYING power of the Blood of Jesus Christ and the Power of the Holy Ghost indwelling within us.

No one here is disagreeing with that, but the fireman also doesn't stand there blaming the fire on you and telling you if you want out of it to just walk out either.

Yes they need to be saved from this sin, just as any other, and just as any other sin, there will continue to be temptations at times.

The difference is many assume that their fire is worse than the one we ourselves were brought out of, that they carry the wait of choosing that fire more that the rest of us, and that they have the ability to come out of the fire first before finding the fireman.

1Th 4:3-4 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

concupiscence: a longing (especially for what is forbidden): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after).

Mortify - akin to crucify? make dead.

We CAN BE INSTANTLY delivered from uncleaness, inordinate affections and evil concupiscence through the Sanctifying power of the Blood of Jesus.

I agree, but I also know that we will continue to be tempted to sin, and we must continue to seek God to bring us through temptation and deliver us from evil. This is true for all people, we just don't all struggle with the same sins.

Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gal 5:24,25 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If one really CARES about people trapped in this fiery problem...then more "firemen" would care enough to preach DELIVERANCE (instaneous Sanctification as a second definite work of GRACE) and not WORKING through the problem (progressive "sanctification"). If so...then a whole lifetime of grief and sorrow could be avoided.

So you are never tempted? you do not struggle in this life? Well then you should add a few books to the Bible then, you're doing better than Paul, and actually better than Christ, as even he was tempted.

God said he would walk with us, give us strength and guidance, he did not say this life would always be easy, that there would be no temptation, and sin could never touch us, but over and over in scripture we are told to constantly be aware, to turn from sin daily, and to keep our eyes upon him for our strength to get through.

[EagerBeaver]

If one really CARES about people trapped in this fiery problem...then more "firemen" would care enough to preach DELIVERANCE (instaneous Sanctification as a second definite work of GRACE) and not WORKING through the problem (progressive "sanctification"). If so...then a whole lifetime of grief and sorrow could be avoided.

Glory hallelujah, scare people into serving Jesus!

[RaceRunner]

perhaps if more preachers taught Biblical view of God's mercy, saving Grace and deliverance, rather than shunning the people (or perhaps more accurately - teaching that they must be and live sinless at the moment of accepting salvation and/or sanctification), more would get saved from the righteousness and judgment of God.

Since when is preaching deliverance considered to be shunning?

WORKING through the problem does nothing to illustrate the Mercy and Saving power of the blood of Jesus. It is not very merciful of us to withhold teaching about the delivering power of Jesus Christ and instead teach someone to "just hang in there...keep your chin up...you'll work through it one day if you are STRONG enough!".

Deliverance (setting free) from homosexuality is the same deliverance offered to the alcoholic, drug addict and adulterer.

It is a lifeline that is called Regeneration which is offered ONLY through mercy and saving Grace of God...and not by progressive works.

Tit 3:5,6 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (edited twice)


But I do understand the problem...
It IS hard to preach deliverance and self-justification at the same time.

[RaceRunner]

Racerunner:

It would be nice if your illustration was valid.....alas it is not.

I understand as much as anyone about deliverance. I understand the biblical principles you have used.

I also know about the fact that your idea of "instantaneous santification" is not very well grounded in scripture nor is it very practical.

You seem to be saying that if one is truely sancitified they will not have a desire for sin.....nothing could be further from the truth.

I do not wish to be argumentative about all this.....just "show me the fruit".

To think that people don't have issues to work through is a "ostrich " view of the spiritual and physical world.

You cannot spiritualize flesh.

~Alas!~

[Brian]

Pastor Bill, I am not defending his positon at all because to be quite honest I don't entirely know it! LOL
But it seems as if he is saying that sanctification removes the "desire to sin" but not the fact that anyone, even the sanctified, can be tempted. Just that the "desire" is removed.

I can't say I agree, but it seems as if thats what racerunning is trying to say.

God bless

[Dr. Ron]

I don't think I understand the phrase "self justification"

Please explain....are you infering that I am homosexual? I do not need to justify myself.

And if I gave you the impression I don't believe in deliverance, then you didn't read my post well. I DO believe in it...I just don't believe everyone gets delivered at the point of conversion.

There are many things people have to work through. They don't all get delivered of smoking. Some people have to have help in those areas.
I see nothing in your judgemental statements that makes a lot of sense.

[Pastor Bill]

perhaps if more preachers taught Biblical view of God's mercy, saving Grace and deliverance, rather than shunning the people (or perhaps more accurately - teaching that they must be and live sinless at the moment of accepting salvation and/or sanctification), more would get saved from the righteousness and judgment of God.

Since when is preaching deliverance considered to be shunning?

WORKING through the problem does nothing to illustrate the Mercy and Saving power of the blood of Jesus. It is not very merciful of us to withhold teaching about the delivering power of Jesus Christ and instead teach someone to "just hang in there...keep your chin up...you'll work through it one day if you are STRONG enough!".

Deliverance (setting free) from homosexuality is the same deliverance offered to the alcoholic, drug addict and adulterer.

It is a lifeline that is called Regeneration which is offered ONLY through mercy and saving Grace of God...and not by progressive works.

Tit 3:5,6 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (edited twice)


But I do understand the problem...
It IS hard to preach deliverance and self-justification at the same time.

No one is preaching self-justification here. all that we are saying is to reach people you have to be willing to understand their struggles and help them to see the light that will bring them out of their darkness.

You cannot do that by standing back and saying "just be delivered" isn't going to reach them. Rejecting real issues they deal with and temptations they face doesn't help them to seek Christ's strength to be delivered, it just pushes them away. With an alcoholic we understand the addiction and temptations they face, and tell them that Christ can deliver them from it, but too often with a homosexual we just stand back and say "it was your choice, turn from it and then find deliverance.

The problem is we DON'T treat this like any other sin.

And many times with this and other sins there are deeper issues that people need to deal with, seek forgiveness, healing and deliverance. but if we just stand back and say "be delivered" they don't always even understand what they are being delivered from, so they fall right back into it. Think about the number of people saved at your last revival. How many of them are still standing strong for God? If they are, it's because they have worked with the church to grow closer to God, but if we aren't willing to do this with homosexuals, then we aren't going to reach them.

[Pastor Bill]

Pastor Bill, I am not defending his positon at all because to be quite honest I don't entirely know it! LOL
But it seems as if he is saying that sanctification removes the "desire to sin" but not the fact that anyone, even the sanctified, can be tempted. Just that the "desire" is removed.

I can't say I agree, but it seems as if thats what racerunning is trying to say.

God bless

how can you be tempted to something you have no desire to do?

You're right that's what he seems to be saying, but I don't see scripture backing up that stance, we are all tempted, and we must all work to draw closer to God. I don't believe there is a magical point where that stops, and I would fear for anyone who believed they had reached a point where they no longer needed to turn from sin, seek God and His will in their life. Especially a young Christian who had dealt with such problems as homosexuality.