Homosexuality is...

[RaceRunner]

Double post.

[RaceRunner]

No one is preaching self-justification here. all that we are saying is to reach people you have to be willing to understand their struggles and help them to see the light that will bring them out of their darkness

What is a struggle?
Your Will coming in direct conflict with God's Will.
Your will fighting against God's Will.
Satan, of course, takes advantage of this conflict through tempations, etc.

Through Godly sorrow we can repent and turn from ALL sin...not just the ones we are struggling with...then God can cleanse, justify and regenerate.

You cannot do that by standing back and saying "just be delivered" isn't going to reach them. Rejecting real issues they deal with and temptations they face doesn't help them to seek Christ's strength to be delivered, it just pushes them away. With an alcoholic we understand the addiction and temptations they face, and tell them that Christ can deliver them from it, but too often with a homosexual we just stand back and say "it was your choice, turn from it and then find deliverance.

Since when can WE deliver anyone? We DO NOT have the power to deliver anyone. Only the Blood of Jesus Christ has that power.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Co 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


I don't have to drink or do heroin to understand how Jesus delivers an alcoholic or drug addict. I don't have to participate in a particular sin to know or to teach how to be delivered from it. I don't even have to understand the mechanics or the socio-reasons for the sin. I personally know the DELIVERER and am willing and happy to introduce you to Him and His Word.

And many times with this and other sins there are deeper issues that people need to deal with, seek forgiveness, healing and deliverance.

Of course.

...but if we just stand back and say "be delivered" they don't always even understand what they are being delivered from, so they fall right back into it.

I frankly don't understand...unless you are a follower of Benny Hinn or perhaps a UPC...why anyone would think that you can just stand back and say "be delivered"????

Without the Sanctifying Power of the blood of Jesus Christ as a second definite work of GRACE (not WORKS)...you probably WILL fall right back into sin...that is ALWAYS the problem. Since Salvation only takes care of "SINS PAST".

Rom 3:23-25 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Which is why we have to preach THE WHOLE message...not just part of it.

Think about the number of people saved at your last revival. How many of them are still standing strong for God? If they are, it's because they have worked with the church to grow closer to God, but if we aren't willing to do this with homosexuals, then we aren't going to reach them.

Still standing strong. They were delivered from ALL sin. They also are rooted and grounded in the Word because we DO preach the whole message.

Who said that we aren't willing to do this with homosexuals????
False assumption aren't very strong debating points.

You're right that's what he seems to be saying, but I don't see scripture backing up that stance, we are all tempted, and we must all work to draw closer to God.

That would be "she".

Let's LOOK CLOSER at that scripture and NOT misquote it.

Jam 1:12-15
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

It doesn't necessarily say that every man is tempted.
It says "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

We are all tempted when we are drawn away of our own lusts and are enticed. Remember 'ole Eve and Touch not; taste not; handle not;

I don't believe there is a magical point where that stops, and I would fear for anyone who believed they had reached a point where they no longer needed to turn from sin, seek God and His will in their life.

In this you are completely correct. There is no magical point. We all must remain on guard.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

[b]Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.[/b]

[Dr. Ron]

Did I read that right ........????? Salvation only takes care of "sins past"?
Are you serious????

So, unless I get sanctified on the same night I get saved, then I am doomed to repeat my sins......

Get a grip......surely you don't believe this....and none of your scriptural references point that out.

[Mike Vande]

Ther is no hard scientific evidence to support "born that way", "induced by psychological trauma", or anything else as the definitive origin of all homosexuality. But, considering that there are innumerable kinds of genetically-caused pathologies rampant in the world due it being a fallen planet(Down's Syndrome, Cretinism, Demyelinization of nerve tissue, cancer, Multiple Sclerosis, etc) that cause physical symptoms, and with the research that has uncovered the roots of chronic depression as a genetically-based chemical imbalance in the brain, I do not have a problem believing that homosexuality can be genetic in nature some of the time. By the same token, I doubt very seriously that every practicing homosexual person is driven by his genes to it. It's obvious and aproven fact that a person's upbringing can be so horrific as to induce horrible sins, and I can easily see some people who have been traumatised so badly by their early life experieces that they turn to homosexuality. There are too many other variables to limit a behavior as complex as homosexuality to either nature or nurture as the only cause.

Whatever causes it, it's still not excusable, I believe I believe the Bible says that all sin is genetic in nature; we inherited the sin nature from our farthest ancestors, when they brought sin into the world, ruining the entire planet and everything on it. God says all sin is wrong, and sent His Son to provide a way out of every sort of sin. Being "born that way" is not an excuse when Jesus says you can be free of anything.

So it doesn't matter if you were born prone to homosexuality, gambling, adultery, sloth, fornication, alcoholism, drug addiction, overeating, rebellion, or any other sin. Jesus is the way out of all sin, and everybody faces the choice to take Him up or not daily.

[RaceRunner]

Did I read that right ........????? Salvation only takes care of "sins past"?
Are you serious????

So, unless I get sanctified on the same night I get saved, then I am doomed to repeat my sins......

Get a grip......surely you don't believe this....and none of your scriptural references point that out.

Serious?.......As serious as the scripture quoted.....Sins past...not those you may be planning on doing in the future.

Doomed?.......Not doomed, but unfortunately possible.
But, according to your very own words....probable...if not rooted and grounded in The Word of God.

Actually it really does pay to explain Sanctification upon Salvation or VERY soon thereafter. Why WOULD you WANT to wait??


Grip?......check...got it.

[one love]

The more I read here, I more I worry that the world is shaping the church instead of the church shaping the world.

SAD but very true!!! I have recently preached (in a small part of my message) that the church is supposed to effect the world, instead the world has effected the church!


i know a guy who I am very close friends with that was a homosexual and got saved and is completely delivered. As a Matter of fact I remember praying with him as he was getting the Holy ghost. He does not desire men at all.

The thought that one is born a homosexual is a justification that they can not change (for the most part) however Christ can deliver us from any sin.

Drugs are a choice whether addicted or not, you are still choosing to do the drug rather then face withdrawal symptoms. Jesus can also deliver addicts and they can have NO withdrawals!

[Dr. Ron]

I would never, and have not said that I don't think they can change. I posted about some of my members who have done just that.

But, the myopic idea that it can ONLY come by divine deliverance and nothing more can or needs to be done is ludicrous.

[RaceRunner]

But, the myopic idea that it can ONLY come by divine deliverance and nothing more can or needs to be done is ludicrous.

No one has stated otherwise.

However...Deliverance is to be FREED from sin...not WORK yourself out of it.

Once Delivered...you ARE FREED to GROW in GRACE...not to be BOUND by past chains.

The same Blood has SAVES...also SANCTIFIES....AND HEALS.

That we can agree on.

[Pastor Bill]

No one is preaching self-justification here. all that we are saying is to reach people you have to be willing to understand their struggles and help them to see the light that will bring them out of their darkness

What is a struggle?
Your Will coming in direct conflict with God's Will.
Your will fighting against God's Will.
Satan, of course, takes advantage of this conflict through tempations, etc.

Through Godly sorrow we can repent and turn from ALL sin...not just the ones we are struggling with...then God can cleanse, justify and regenerate.

Again I have to ask, so you never struggle with temptation or sin? That's funny because Paul talked about it, even Christ was tempted, how is it you are above that again?

You cannot do that by standing back and saying "just be delivered" isn't going to reach them. Rejecting real issues they deal with and temptations they face doesn't help them to seek Christ's strength to be delivered, it just pushes them away. With an alcoholic we understand the addiction and temptations they face, and tell them that Christ can deliver them from it, but too often with a homosexual we just stand back and say "it was your choice, turn from it and then find deliverance.

Since when can WE deliver anyone? We DO NOT have the power to deliver anyone. Only the Blood of Jesus Christ has that power.

I never said otherwise. But we are to reach out to people and show the light of Christ that is within us to them. If we aren't reaching them with the Love of Christ, then we aren't doing as He commanded us.

I don't have to drink or do heroin to understand how Jesus delivers an alcoholic or drug addict. I don't have to participate in a particular sin to know or to teach how to be delivered from it. I don't even have to understand the mechanics or the socio-reasons for the sin. I personally know the DELIVERER and am willing and happy to introduce you to Him and His Word.

I never said you did, but You do have to show them the deliverer, and you can't do that while you are putting them down and pushing them away. How do you introduce someone to Him while pushing them away?

And many times with this and other sins there are deeper issues that people need to deal with, seek forgiveness, healing and deliverance.

Of course.

...but if we just stand back and say "be delivered" they don't always even understand what they are being delivered from, so they fall right back into it.

I frankly don't understand...unless you are a follower of Benny Hinn or perhaps a UPC...why anyone would think that you can just stand back and say "be delivered"????

but that is exactly what you are coming across as saying. I may be misunderstanding you, but that is exactly what you seem to be saying even in this email when you state that you don't need to understand what they are going through (which implies that you don't care what they are going through) you just want to introduce them to the Deliverer, which is exactly what I want to do, but I also know you can't reach people if you don't care about them or don't take seriously the issues they are facing.

Without the Sanctifying Power of the blood of Jesus Christ as a second definite work of GRACE (not WORKS)...you probably WILL fall right back into sin...that is ALWAYS the problem. Since Salvation only takes care of "SINS PAST".

Rom 3:23-25 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Which is why we have to preach THE WHOLE message...not just part of it.

never disagreed with this, but to reach people and bring them to Christ, you first have to care enough about them to love them as Christ loved them. The message doesn't matter if no one is listening.

Think about the number of people saved at your last revival. How many of them are still standing strong for God? If they are, it's because they have worked with the church to grow closer to God, but if we aren't willing to do this with homosexuals, then we aren't going to reach them.

Still standing strong. They were delivered from ALL sin. They also are rooted and grounded in the Word because we DO preach the whole message.

So you are taking the time to disciple them, working with them to see things in their lives that are not pleasing to God and to understand that they need healing and deliverance, and helping them to learn to seek God? I assume that upon salvation that they still often have struggles with temptations that, prior to sanctification they have to work through, and they have to seek sanctification as well right?

Then why is it that when we speak of doing this same thing for someone who is struggling with homosexuality that you find it so wrong?

Who said that we aren't willing to do this with homosexuals????
False assumption aren't very strong debating points.

I'm not assuming here, I'm describing what we are doing and you are attacking me for it, the only difference is that we are looking at all sins the same and NOT singling out homosexuality as a sin beyond our reach that needs to be cleaned before we can reach out to them.

You're right that's what he seems to be saying, but I don't see scripture backing up that stance, we are all tempted, and we must all work to draw closer to God.

That would be "she".

Sorry about that, I never know who's behind the screen name, and I often forget, I don't mean to offend.

Let's LOOK CLOSER at that scripture and NOT misquote it.

Jam 1:12-15
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

It doesn't necessarily say that every man is tempted.
It says "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Take another look at those verses, it's saying BLESSED is a man that endureth temptation (so that doesn't make temptation itself sound like a sin or bad thing in a person's life) Then it says in v. 13 WHEN he is tempted, which implies that this is a normal thing that happens in life. Then gives the verse you spoke of, which points to the methods used to tempt (again the lust in one man's heart may be toward one sin, while another toward another sin, and (v. 15) shows us the results of falling to that temptation.

I agree 100% with what these verses are saying, but no where here does it say we are going to be free from temptation, it in fact encourages us to endureth temptation and not be drawn away.

We are all tempted when we are drawn away of our own lusts and are enticed. Remember 'ole Eve and Touch not; taste not; handle not;

I don't believe there is a magical point where that stops, and I would fear for anyone who believed they had reached a point where they no longer needed to turn from sin, seek God and His will in their life.

In this you are completely correct. There is no magical point. We all must remain on guard.

yet when I say we need to understand these temptations faced by a homosexual, and stand with them in being vigilant against temptation, you feel I am teaching them to self-justify? That doesn't make any sense. Either I am misunderstanding you, or you are reading things into my posts that I am not saying.

I have never said homosexuality was excused, acceptable or anything even close to that. I have said that we need to be willing to understand that these are real temptations for some people, and work as diligently to support them in standing strong as anyone else.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

[b]Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.[/b]

I agree with these verses 100%, and feel it is our DUTY as the church to support one another in that perseverance, in that vigilance, that we all might endure till the end. And I believe that holds true no matter what temptations you face, no matter what sins are in your past, that Christ is the answer to them all, and as His church, we MUST bring that light to ALL even those who are caught up in the sins of homosexuality.

[Pastor Bill]

AMEN Mike, I especially like that last line, everyone seems to forget that no matter what the reasons are, sin is sin. The reasons sometimes need to be dealt with just as much as the sin to help the person to grow, but no one here is trying to justify sin.

[Pastor Bill]

The more I read here, I more I worry that the world is shaping the church instead of the church shaping the world.

SAD but very true!!! I have recently preached (in a small part of my message) that the church is supposed to effect the world, instead the world has effected the church!


i know a guy who I am very close friends with that was a homosexual and got saved and is completely delivered. As a Matter of fact I remember praying with him as he was getting the Holy ghost. He does not desire men at all.

And that is wonderful, I also know some who have been delivered from sin in this way, but I also know those that still struggle with temptation (whether homosexual temptation or other temptations) are they to be ignored? are they just really not saved or sanctified enough? Or are we to support them in overcoming temptation and striving to grow closer to God?

The thought that one is born a homosexual is a justification that they can not change (for the most part) however Christ can deliver us from any sin.

Nope, there is no justification for such a thing, and No one here has ever said it was, you are reading that into our posts. All we are saying is that for some this may be part of what is used to draw them into sin, the source of their own lust as scripture points out, we are drawn away by our own lust, so that lust has to come from somewhere.

Drugs are a choice whether addicted or not, you are still choosing to do the drug rather then face withdrawal symptoms. Jesus can also deliver addicts and they can have NO withdrawals!

Yes, and sometimes that is what happens, and sometimes he gives them the strength to overcome.

[EagerBeaver]

Sorry if I am re-mentioning something that may have been posted earlier, but isn't the true and actual definition of sanctification found in 1 Corinthians 15:31 where Paul proclaims "I die daily"?

That tells me that as long as we're on this earth we are going to have struggles. As long as we have a physical body and mind, we're going to struggle...but we don't have to give in.

[Pastor Bill]

But, the myopic idea that it can ONLY come by divine deliverance and nothing more can or needs to be done is ludicrous.

No one has stated otherwise.

However...Deliverance is to be FREED from sin...not WORK yourself out of it.

Once Delivered...you ARE FREED to GROW in GRACE...not to be BOUND by past chains.

The same Blood has SAVES...also SANCTIFIES....AND HEALS.

That we can agree on.

Maybe not stated, but it's sure been implied, those of us who have said we would stand by a person who was not immediately freed, and work with them to struggle against these temptations were accused of teaching self-justification or excusing the sin.

[RaceRunner]

Again I have to ask, so you never struggle with temptation or sin? That's funny because Paul talked about it, even Christ was tempted, how is it you are above that again?

If and when I choose MY Will over God's Will, then I am choosing my desires over God's desires. I will then open myself up to be drawn away OF MY OWN LUST and enticed.

Satan is always READY, WILLING AND ABLE to tempt anyone, anytime. He will find the person who is ready to place follow their own will above God's. That is when he strikes.

However, I don't have to fall victim or succumb to temptation at any time.
....there is always a way of escape.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Temptation is not a sin...but my response to it can be sin. I can pet temptation, dwell on it, hang around it, succumb to it.....or I can RESIST IT.

I CERTAINLY DON'T have to live with it every day. For when I resist, Satan has to flee. (until he obviously sees that I am choosing my own will over God's again and swoops in to try again.)

The escape from temptation?

Jam 4:7-10 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

But we are to reach out to people and show the light of Christ that is within us to them. If we aren't reaching them with the Love of Christ, then we aren't doing as He commanded us.

Agreed. The ultimate expression of Love is Christ's deliverance.

I never said you did, but You do have to show them the deliverer, and you can't do that while you are putting them down and pushing them away. How do you introduce someone to Him while pushing them away?

Exactly why would you think I am suggesting or condoning pushing them away?

but that is exactly what you are coming across as saying. I may be misunderstanding you, but that is exactly what you seem to be saying even in this email when you state that you don't need to understand what they are going through (which implies that you don't care what they are going through) you just want to introduce them to the Deliverer, which is exactly what I want to do, but I also know you can't reach people if you don't care about them or don't take seriously the issues they are facing.

Then there's the problemo....Misunderstanding...Why would anyone..NOT CARE?

never disagreed with this, but to reach people and bring them to Christ, you first have to care enough about them to love them as Christ loved them. The message doesn't matter if no one is listening.

The message matters EVEN IF no one is listening. It IS possible to love as Christ loves and they will still not listen. His word will not return void. Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

So you are taking the time to disciple them, working with them to see things in their lives that are not pleasing to God and to understand that they need healing and deliverance, and helping them to learn to seek God? I assume that upon salvation that they still often have struggles with temptations that, prior to sanctification they have to work through, and they have to seek sanctification as well right?

Yep. But when you are DELIVERED (freed)...you are NO LONGER an alcoholic...a drug addict..or a homosexual. However, once you allow your will to come into direct conflict with God's will.....be tempted..you can succumb..you can choose to go back into that sin. Very possible. Once again. Free Will. Free Choice.

..........Then why is it that when we speak of doing this same thing for someone who is struggling with homosexuality that you find it so wrong?

I don't believe I did.

I'm not assuming here, I'm describing what we are doing and you are attacking me for it, the only difference is that we are looking at all sins the same and NOT singling out homosexuality as a sin beyond our reach that needs to be cleaned before we can reach out to them.

Homosexuality, drug addiction, alcoholism cannot be cleaned up without the delivering power of Jesus Christ. But they will ONLY learn about this DELIVERING power WHEN we reach out to them. We KNOW that Jesus Christ can instantaneously deliver them FROM their struggles and sin. Why WOULD we not want to SHARE this wonderful news?

Sorry about that, I never know who's behind the screen name, and I often forget, I don't mean to offend.

You can't offend me. Just reminded you.

I agree 100% with what these verses are saying, but no where here does it say we are going to be free from temptation, it in fact encourages us to endureth temptation and not be drawn away.

You are correct. We are not FREE from temptations. But the Word does say that we are tempted WHEN we are drawn drawn away of our own lusts and are enticed. Unfortunately, we seem to be OFTEN drawn away of our own lusts and have to bring our will back in line to God's will. Wouldn't happen so often if we stay prayed up and well read in God's word.

yet when I say we need to understand these temptations faced by a homosexual, and stand with them in being vigilant against temptation, you feel I am teaching them to self-justify? That doesn't make any sense. Either I am misunderstanding you, or you are reading things into my posts that I am not saying.

Perhaps both.

I have never said homosexuality was excused, acceptable or anything even close to that. I have said that we need to be willing to understand that these are real temptations for some people, and work as diligently to support them in standing strong as anyone else.

Agreed. But we still can be freed FROM them...and not have to live WITH them.

I agree with these verses 100%, and feel it is our DUTY as the church to support one another in that perseverance, in that vigilance, that we all might endure till the end. And I believe that holds true no matter what temptations you face, no matter what sins are in your past, that Christ is the answer to them all, and as His church, we MUST bring that light to ALL even those who are caught up in the sins of homosexuality.

Agreed.

[RaceRunner]

Sorry if I am re-mentioning something that may have been posted earlier, but isn't the true and actual definition of sanctification found in 1 Corinthians 15:31 where Paul proclaims "I die daily"?

That tells me that as long as we're on this earth we are going to have struggles. As long as we have a physical body and mind, we're going to struggle...but we don't have to give in.

You mean this scripture passage? (feel free to read the entire chapter.)

1Co 15:17-34
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.


An even better one:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


So here is a question:

If we can sanctify ourselves....then why did Jesus shed His Blood for it?