Homosexuality is...

[Pastor Bill]

Again I have to ask, so you never struggle with temptation or sin? That's funny because Paul talked about it, even Christ was tempted, how is it you are above that again?

If and when I choose MY Will over God's Will, then I am choosing my desires over God's desires. I will then open myself up to be drawn away OF MY OWN LUST and enticed.

I agree 100%, and as your brother, I would be glad to stand with you in times of struggle and help you to see God's will above your own, to pray for you for God's strength to overcome temptation, and find only His will in your life. I also believe you would do the same for me.

BUT why is it then when we suggest doing this for a homosexual we seem to get blasted about it?

Satan is always READY, WILLING AND ABLE to tempt anyone, anytime. He will find the person who is ready to place follow their own will above God's. That is when he strikes.

However, I don't have to fall victim or succumb to temptation at any time.
....there is always a way of escape.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Temptation is not a sin...but my response to it can be sin. I can pet temptation, dwell on it, hang around it, succumb to it.....or I can RESIST IT.

I completely agree

I CERTAINLY DON'T have to live with it every day. For when I resist, Satan has to flee. (until he obviously sees that I am choosing my own will over God's again and swoops in to try again.)

The escape from temptation?

Jam 4:7-10 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

no disagreement from me on this either

But we are to reach out to people and show the light of Christ that is within us to them. If we aren't reaching them with the Love of Christ, then we aren't doing as He commanded us.

Agreed. The ultimate expression of Love is Christ's deliverance.

I never said you did, but You do have to show them the deliverer, and you can't do that while you are putting them down and pushing them away. How do you introduce someone to Him while pushing them away?

Exactly why would you think I am suggesting or condoning pushing them away?

Because you are rejecting those of us that are saying we should try to meet them where they are and introduce them to Christ. You are blasting us when we say we want to work with them to see that there is an escape, and insisting "They just need deliverance" and attacking those that are trying to reach out to them.

but that is exactly what you are coming across as saying. I may be misunderstanding you, but that is exactly what you seem to be saying even in this email when you state that you don't need to understand what they are going through (which implies that you don't care what they are going through) you just want to introduce them to the Deliverer, which is exactly what I want to do, but I also know you can't reach people if you don't care about them or don't take seriously the issues they are facing.

Then there's the problemo....Misunderstanding...Why would anyone..NOT CARE?

I don't know, which is why I was a concerned with your stance.

never disagreed with this, but to reach people and bring them to Christ, you first have to care enough about them to love them as Christ loved them. The message doesn't matter if no one is listening.

The message matters EVEN IF no one is listening. It IS possible to love as Christ loves and they will still not listen. His word will not return void. Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

yes the message matters, but it doesn't matter to them, or draw them to God if they aren't listening, or are feeling pushed away. Christ sat down and ate with sinners, as he told them to turn from their sin. Today especially with homosexuality too often the church says, turn from your sin, then we'll sit down with you, and THAT is pushing people away.

So you are taking the time to disciple them, working with them to see things in their lives that are not pleasing to God and to understand that they need healing and deliverance, and helping them to learn to seek God? I assume that upon salvation that they still often have struggles with temptations that, prior to sanctification they have to work through, and they have to seek sanctification as well right?

Yep. But when you are DELIVERED (freed)...you are NO LONGER an alcoholic...a drug addict..or a homosexual. However, once you allow your will to come into direct conflict with God's will.....be tempted..you can succumb..you can choose to go back into that sin. Very possible. Once again. Free Will. Free Choice.

I agree, but the issue is up to that point, are we willing to work with people to get them there or not. To show them we care and let them see the light through the Love of Christ in us, and let them see that His grace is sufficient. That's difficult to show someone when we don't give them grace ourselves.

..........Then why is it that when we speak of doing this same thing for someone who is struggling with homosexuality that you find it so wrong?

I don't believe I did.

You've sure come across that way. I really hope that's all this has been is a misunderstanding, because we can't reach people for Christ, we can't introduce them to the deliverer they can't see his Grace if they aren't seeing it in us.

I'm not assuming here, I'm describing what we are doing and you are attacking me for it, the only difference is that we are looking at all sins the same and NOT singling out homosexuality as a sin beyond our reach that needs to be cleaned before we can reach out to them.

Homosexuality, drug addiction, alcoholism cannot be cleaned up without the delivering power of Jesus Christ. But they will ONLY learn about this DELIVERING power WHEN we reach out to them. We KNOW that Jesus Christ can instantaneously deliver them FROM their struggles and sin. Why WOULD we not want to SHARE this wonderful news?[\quote]

I don't know, but many want to see the instantaneous deliverance before they will reach out, or require it to be instantaneous, when we know that for some it takes time for God to draw them, and even after salvation, it can take time for sanctification, it's not an instant thing upon salvation.

Sorry about that, I never know who's behind the screen name, and I often forget, I don't mean to offend.

You can't offend me. Just reminded you.

I agree 100% with what these verses are saying, but no where here does it say we are going to be free from temptation, it in fact encourages us to endureth temptation and not be drawn away.

You are correct. We are not FREE from temptations. But the Word does say that we are tempted WHEN we are drawn drawn away of our own lusts and are enticed. Unfortunately, we seem to be OFTEN drawn away of our own lusts and have to bring our will back in line to God's will. Wouldn't happen so often if we stay prayed up and well read in God's word.[\quote]

I agree, as a mature Christian, this is basic, but for a new convert who has struggled with this type of sin for a long time, this takes work, and we have to be willing to put that work in to lift them up and help them as they stumble along until they are strong enough in the Lord to stand.

yet when I say we need to understand these temptations faced by a homosexual, and stand with them in being vigilant against temptation, you feel I am teaching them to self-justify? That doesn't make any sense. Either I am misunderstanding you, or you are reading things into my posts that I am not saying.

Perhaps both.

I have never said homosexuality was excused, acceptable or anything even close to that. I have said that we need to be willing to understand that these are real temptations for some people, and work as diligently to support them in standing strong as anyone else.

Agreed. But we still can be freed FROM them...and not have to live WITH them.

I agree, it's just not always immediate in a new convert's life, and that is unaccepted by many when it comes to homosexuality.

I agree with these verses 100%, and feel it is our DUTY as the church to support one another in that perseverance, in that vigilance, that we all might endure till the end. And I believe that holds true no matter what temptations you face, no matter what sins are in your past, that Christ is the answer to them all, and as His church, we MUST bring that light to ALL even those who are caught up in the sins of homosexuality.

Agreed.

Amen, I'm glad we are seeing things more clearly now. No one here is justifying homosexuality, or saying people can't be freed from it, only that we have to be willing to see it as a sin/temptation like any other, and be willing to lift people up rather than pushing them away.

[one love]

And that is wonderful, I also know some who have been delivered from sin in this way, but I also know those that still struggle with temptation (whether homosexual temptation or other temptations) are they to be ignored? are they just really not saved or sanctified enough? Or are we to support them in overcoming temptation and striving to grow closer to God?

Sure they are saved, I did not mention any thing different. We can all be tempted with anything and he will tempt us!!!! Now we have the choice and ability with the power of Christ to not give in to temptation.

Nope, there is no justification for such a thing, and No one here has ever said it was, you are reading that into our posts. All we are saying is that for some this may be part of what is used to draw them into sin, the source of their own lust as scripture points out, we are drawn away by our own lust, so that lust has to come from somewhere.

Ummm where did the "we" verse "me" thing come into play? I never said anything regarding anyone here at all. I am stating that the world uses the "you are born gay" as a justification, never addressed that to anyone.
There is a lot of assumptions going for sure from what I can read. especially saying that some of "us" present ourselves hatefully or wrongfully to homosexuals, or treat them any different. I treat ALL sin the same and introduce a loving saviour that can heal them and deliver them. I do not judge anyones lifestyle at all. Nobody judged me when I got saved and I was in rough shape and delivered from many things. praise the Lord.
I think some may read into certain post things that are not there, as you thought I did, which I can understand, but this is not a "we" thing.

Yes, and sometimes that is what happens, and sometimes he gives them the strength to overcome.

AMEN!!!



Listen the basic truth here is Jesus can save and deliver anyone period. Do any of us doubt that? do we doubt someone can be delivered from heroin with out withdrawals? I hope not. do some go through programs and such? sure they do.
Can a homosexual be completely delivered?Yes can he/she be tempted? Yes

Satan will also try to tempt us to fail and give in so we no longer serve God.
I do not desire to smoke, drink, or do any other substances any longer since I was saved. Does that mean I cant be tempted to smoke? No!!! But I can over come any temptation through his sanctifying power, I do not desire these things any longer

homosexuals should not be singled out!!! they need to be loved as with any sinner. People need to be able to feel that genuine love from the church when they are NOT saved. We must care for, be there, help, encourage them any way possible because Christ does that for us!

[beckrl]

If we really want to know how the "Church" and the movement of Homosexuality.
Read my friend's site at Gay Christian Movement Watch http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/

[one love]

The truth is Christians many time judge sinners and assume they would never come to church or even want to be saved and it is not so. There are Millions of drug addicts, gang bangers, skin head racist, homosexuals etc. that are miserable and desire to come to Christ if someone would just love them enough and take the time to introduce them to a loving God.

We have preached to the churched for TO long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From personal experience and also from those that I knew that came to Christ by seeing the change he did in my life and me explaining that you do not need to change to come to Christ, you just need to come to him and he will change you!

[RaceRunner]

Pastor Bill wrote

Because you are rejecting those of us that are saying we should try to meet them where they are and introduce them to Christ. You are blasting us when we say we want to work with them to see that there is an escape, and insisting "They just need deliverance" and attacking those that are trying to reach out to them

.

Actually. I have neither rejected, attacked nor blasted those who are working with this group. You are changing horses in mid stream.

Mine and your discussions have centered around your original thots of biological leanings, genetics, nature and nurture, and that temptations (hetero and/or homo?) stem from natural hormonal urges, as noted below. These discussion have not been regarding persons who work with this group at all.

Pastor Bill wrote: Meaning I guess there could be some biological leanings towards it, just as there are some who biologically will become alcoholics easier than others....But I think it's more from disfunctional relationships, abuse, lack of or distance from same sex parent, etc that plays more of a role in this.

Pastor Bill wrote: I am diabetic, it's genetic, so is this the way God created me? No, he did not make me diseased and imperfect, sin did. Some people are born more prone to alcoholism, homosexuality, drug abuse, tempers that cause rage and bring sin.....the temptation also comes from poor gender examples, abuse, etc.

Pastor Bill wrote: Even heterosexual sins the temptation comes biologically from natural hormones and urges. If someone falls to those sins, we recognize the temptation, and work with them to recognize and protect themselves from it, but for homosexuals, who probably have more issues pushing them to such extremes we turn a blind eye to their struggles and blow it off as a simple choice they made.

Although all sin is an abomination to God...for some reason He particullarly specifies this one also...which perhaps is the cause for much waryness on this subject.


Homosexuality is not a genetic, hormonal or birth defect. It is not a pre-diposition.

To blame this sin completely on "environment and nurture" does a great disservice to all those who have the same nurture and environment and does not choose that path.

The scripture is clear that this is a chosen downward path...step by step...that steadily walks away from God.

Rom 1:20-28

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

step: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

step: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

step: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

step: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

step: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

step: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

step: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;



Can a person stop, repent, turn from, and be delivered in any one of those steps?

Sure.

But when one finally goes so far that one's mind (conscience) becomes seared against The Holy Ghost that it becomes reprobate...?? How frightening.

reprobate: ad-ok'-ee-mos From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.


thots: You can be a diabetic, etc. and a Christian at the same time. Although disease is caused by the fall, it is not sin. However, you cannot BE a homosexual and a Christian at the same time. Darkness and Light cannot co-exist in the same life. You must repent in Godly sorrow, turn from sin, be justified, regenerated and born again by the blood of Jesus Christ as a new creature. And you can be delivered from the inordinate desires, lusts, and chains of concupicense (sp?) through Sanctification and the power of The Holy Ghost.

[pastorables]

The more I read here, the more I worry that the world is shaping the church instead of the church shaping the world.

Thank you.

[RamboPreacher]

unfortunately that may be happening, but I don't read that in this thread.

[RaceRunner]

The following statement has nothing to do with my ongoing conversation with Pastor Bill....


And here is something we haven't even touched on yet.

While the religious world is busy pondering the ideas of pre-disposition, genetic, birth or hormonal defects; nature vrs. nurture, etc....all of which are "old hat" arguments in the "world".

The militants are in our schools, high schools and colleges teaching kids right the opposite now.

Using the smoke screen of being "born that way" argument for mom and dads (& churches)....while using the "choose this way" argument for the kids.

Starting by desensitizing them to the lifestyle in cartoons, t.v. and movies..then moving into the schools and telling children that there should be NO difference and no ONE particular choice. Whatever you want to be at the moment. Hetero today, Bi- tomorrow, etc. Experiment and be open to new experiences.

Don't believe it? Then you haven't been paying attention to the news lately.

[RamboPreacher]

don't disagree at all RR. In fact, I believe it all stems from the same thread as they teach evolutionism from kindergarten up in public schools.

[Brian]

The following statement has nothing to do with my ongoing conversation with Pastor Bill....


And here is something we haven't even touched on yet.

While the religious world is busy pondering the ideas of pre-disposition, genetic, birth or hormonal defects; nature vrs. nurture, etc....all of which are "old hat" arguments in the "world".

The militants are in our schools, high schools and colleges teaching kids right the opposite now.

Using the smoke screen of being "born that way" argument for mom and dads (& churches)....while using the "choose this way" argument for the kids.

Starting by desensitizing them to the lifestyle in cartoons, t.v. and movies..then moving into the schools and telling children that there should be NO difference and no ONE particular choice. Whatever you want to be at the moment. Hetero today, Bi- tomorrow, etc. Experiment and be open to new experiences.

Don't believe it? Then you haven't been paying attention to the news lately.

I agree Racerunner, (oh, sorry for calling you a "he" in one of my other posts!) in fact my 15 year old daughter has several gay friends in school that are out and proud of it. Whenever we get on the subject here at home she gets really defensive about it. She is like "there my friends and I LOVE them" or ya know "omg dad i love so and so (gay person) they are just so awesome!". Thats what I here on a regular basis from the school kids. Of course when we talk I try to explain (in love) how and why there behaviour is destructive and against the natural order of Gods plan. I think she gets it, but would probably expect her to think that they are born that way. I can't be in her head so its hard to know for sure. Its tough teaching kids!!!

[christian]

I Corinthians 6: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[CantBCoy]

I've tried to read the largest part of this thread, but alas I can't say that I've ready every word of every post. If this has been addressed then please point me to that part of the discusson.

I answered there is no single right answer to the poll, but for this reason. I know that what I'm about to bring up may only be a small percentage of the population, but here it is. What about those people that were born with both sex organs? In most cases I suppose there is a "dominant" organ, but there is generally a decision that is made by the parents to consider the child male or female. What happens if the parents chose the wrong sex?

I think Dr. Ron raised the point of hormone levels. If children can be born with both organs is it impossible to imagine that some of the people that struggle with homosexuality are dealing with some, for lack of a better word, birth defect?

Please understand I believe that, more than likely, a good majority of the gay/lesbian community are a product of a depraved society. I'm just trying to figure it all out like the rest of you.

[dolfan]

I've tried to read the largest part of this thread, but alas I can't say that I've ready every word of every post. If this has been addressed then please point me to that part of the discusson.

I answered there is no single right answer to the poll, but for this reason. I know that what I'm about to bring up may only be a small percentage of the population, but here it is. What about those people that were born with both sex organs? In most cases I suppose there is a "dominant" organ, but there is generally a decision that is made by the parents to consider the child male or female. What happens if the parents chose the wrong sex?

I think Dr. Ron raised the point of hormone levels. If children can be born with both organs is it impossible to imagine that some of the people that struggle with homosexuality are dealing with some, for lack of a better word, birth defect?

Please understand I believe that, more than likely, a good majority of the gay/lesbian community are a product of a depraved society. I'm just trying to figure it all out like the rest of you.

I started to bring up the hormone thing earlier. You know, there was a study, maybe more than one now, that showed that hormone levels in the womb may be a higher influence on sexual preference than genetics. The theory -- and the study tended to support it -- was that some women build antibodies to the testosterone surge that happens and basically turns females into males in the womb. All embryos are evidently female until this testosterone surge coincides with some other hormonal tide that suppresses female organ development, and voila, itzaboy!!! Well, the theory is that some women have an immune reaction after their first-born male sons develop. The antibodies build in the first male-child pregnancy, then attack when the next pregnancy occurs that has one of these testosterone surges. The study supposedly showed that subsequent born males have a higher tendency to being homosexual than first borns, and that lower testosterone levels may be a factor. Another study demonstrated (not conclusively, of course) that ring finger to middle finger length ratios (a pretty solidly hormonally -- again, testosterone -- determined trait) are higher in lesbians than in straight women. So, maybe hormones play a larger factor than we know.

I don't know. All I can do is quote George Thorogood..... I really, really, really, really, really, really like girls.

[Poimen]

Racerunner:

It would be nice if your illustration was valid.....alas it is not.

I understand as much as anyone about deliverance. I understand the biblical principles you have used.

I also know about the fact that your idea of "instantaneous sanctification" is not very well grounded in scripture nor is it very practical.

You seem to be saying that if one is truly sanctified they will not have a desire for sin.....nothing could be further from the truth.

I do not wish to be argumentative about all this.....just "show me the fruit".

To think that people don't have issues to work through is a "ostrich " view of the spiritual and physical world.

You cannot spiritualize flesh.

Well stated Dr. Ron.

I know that my concurrence may be misunderstood, maybe even demeaned, nevertheless it is worth the risk to personal reputation. This very issue (misunderstanding the true nature and scope of instantaneous sanctification versus the practical issues related thereto while still in the flesh, though no longer of it) is (IMO) a serious source of confusion both for those being taught it and the people doing the teaching.

Instantaneous sanctification is a definite work of grace in the HEART or spiritual nature of man. However, it does not change the nature of our carnal existence itself (the body and mind, their needs, functions, capacities, and desires). We are still in the flesh and must continually mortify it, continually reckoning ourselves dead with Christ by faith in His atoning work, living and walking in the Spirit, so as to receive enabling grace to live without sin.

If a person can be tempted (and let us remember that even Christ was tempted) then they have desires that are attracted to and/or by sinful channels of fulfillment. In easy understood language -- they have desires to sin.

That doesn't mean they desire sin with their heart. It means that they have natural, God given desires that can be, and often are, enticed and excited by sinful perversions of those otherwise neutral God-given passions.

A person who has yielded to and experienced fulfillment of said desires in such a defiled manner, even though now redeemed and cleansed, retains knowledge of that experience and would naturally be prone to temptations relating to their former sins. That is true whatever the sin in question.

Now, I'm not denying special grace is available, for God giveth more grace and is the God of all grace. I am simply saying that personal sanctification, in and of itself does not remove the ability to be tempted, enticed , or to finally yield to sin.

Having said that -- I vehemently DENY that a person truly washed in the blood of the Lamb remains enslaved to sin. That is to say, a sinner who practices homosexuality, when converted, is no longer a homosexual. Yes, when tempted (and admittedly more prone to homosexual temptations) they will need to avail themselves of the grace of God and resist sin, and thus not-practice sin. IN this case not practice homosexuality. NEVERTHELESS, they are no longer homosexuals, even if more readily tempted thereby.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: BUT ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[Pastor Bill]

Pastor Bill wrote

Because you are rejecting those of us that are saying we should try to meet them where they are and introduce them to Christ. You are blasting us when we say we want to work with them to see that there is an escape, and insisting "They just need deliverance" and attacking those that are trying to reach out to them

.

Actually. I have neither rejected, attacked nor blasted those who are working with this group. You are changing horses in mid stream.

It has come across that way in this thread. Maybe I am misreading you, but it has come across that way.

Mine and your discussions have centered around your original thots of biological leanings, genetics, nature and nurture, and that temptations (hetero and/or homo?) stem from natural hormonal urges, as noted below. These discussion have not been regarding persons who work with this group at all.

Yes, this has been the start of our discussion, and having worked with people bound up in this sin, I can tell you your approach on this, and your disregard for the issues they face just doesn't work, but when those that have some experience with people going through this try to explain that, you have blasted us, which is why you do appear to be blasting those that are trying to reach out to this group.

Pastor Bill wrote: Meaning I guess there could be some biological leanings towards it, just as there are some who biologically will become alcoholics easier than others....But I think it's more from disfunctional relationships, abuse, lack of or distance from same sex parent, etc that plays more of a role in this.

Pastor Bill wrote: I am diabetic, it's genetic, so is this the way God created me? No, he did not make me diseased and imperfect, sin did. Some people are born more prone to alcoholism, homosexuality, drug abuse, tempers that cause rage and bring sin.....the temptation also comes from poor gender examples, abuse, etc.

Pastor Bill wrote: Even heterosexual sins the temptation comes biologically from natural hormones and urges. If someone falls to those sins, we recognize the temptation, and work with them to recognize and protect themselves from it, but for homosexuals, who probably have more issues pushing them to such extremes we turn a blind eye to their struggles and blow it off as a simple choice they made.

Although all sin is an abomination to God...for some reason He particullarly specifies this one also...which perhaps is the cause for much waryness on this subject.


Homosexuality is not a genetic, hormonal or birth defect. It is not a pre-diposition.

It may be in some ways, I don't think that is the whole story on it, but it does not go against scripture to say that some may be more susceptible to this temptation than others due to hormone levels or whatever. It doesn't excuse anything, but being willing to accept that possibility puts us in a place where we can minister regardless of their reasoning. I see no conflict with scriptures in this possibility of one of the factors that may lead into this sin.

To blame this sin completely on "environment and nurture" does a great disservice to all those who have the same nurture and environment and does not choose that path.

Never said we could blame this completely on anything, I specifically stated (and voted) that there are probably many factors used to push this temptation on people, I do feel this is one of the major ones, just as growing up around alcoholics often (but not always) pushes people to become alcoholics, or growing up around abuse or abused often (but not always) brings about abuse. These things are vicious cycles that need to be broken by the Grace, Love and Forgiveness of Christ. I do not see homosexuality as any different that other manifestations of sin that come from these horrible situations.

The scripture is clear that this is a chosen downward path...step by step...that steadily walks away from God.

Rom 1:20-28

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

step: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

step: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

step: And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

step: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

step: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

step: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

step: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

I agree, but you also must agree that Satan often leads down that road, tempting and twisting things to draw us away by our own lusts. All that we are doing is recognizing some of the methods and things that he is using and pointing them out.

Can a person stop, repent, turn from, and be delivered in any one of those steps?

Sure.

But when one finally goes so far that one's mind (conscience) becomes seared against The Holy Ghost that it becomes reprobate...?? How frightening.

reprobate: ad-ok'-ee-mos From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

I 100% agree, although jumping to reprobate so quickly makes me wonder if you feel homosexuals are all at this point and beyond salvation? I don't think you've ever said that, and I hope it is not what you meant.

thots: You can be a diabetic, etc. and a Christian at the same time. Although disease is caused by the fall, it is not sin. However, you cannot BE a homosexual and a Christian at the same time. Darkness and Light cannot co-exist in the same life. You must repent in Godly sorrow, turn from sin, be justified, regenerated and born again by the blood of Jesus Christ as a new creature. And you can be delivered from the inordinate desires, lusts, and chains of concupicense (sp?) through Sanctification and the power of The Holy Ghost.

This is where we see things a little differently. I agree that sin cannot continue in the life of a Christian, but do you believe in immediate full perfection at the point of salvation? that sanctification is an immediate work simultaneous to salvation? This is sin, and yes people must turn from sin to seek Christ, but many if not most caught up in the homosexual culture are bound much as a drug addict or alcoholic, while Christ sets them free, temptations and the earthly trappings of their sins will try to pull them away, and they need help and support to get through that.