Homosexuality is...

[Pastor Bill]

The following statement has nothing to do with my ongoing conversation with Pastor Bill....


And here is something we haven't even touched on yet.

While the religious world is busy pondering the ideas of pre-disposition, genetic, birth or hormonal defects; nature vrs. nurture, etc....all of which are "old hat" arguments in the "world".

The militants are in our schools, high schools and colleges teaching kids right the opposite now.

Using the smoke screen of being "born that way" argument for mom and dads (& churches)....while using the "choose this way" argument for the kids.

Starting by desensitizing them to the lifestyle in cartoons, t.v. and movies..then moving into the schools and telling children that there should be NO difference and no ONE particular choice. Whatever you want to be at the moment. Hetero today, Bi- tomorrow, etc. Experiment and be open to new experiences.

Don't believe it? Then you haven't been paying attention to the news lately.

I 100% agree, and that's why it's important that we really honestly look at what they are saying, if ANY of it is valid, then deal with it rather than ignoring it.

So what if it is accepted by the world, it's not by Christ, so what if they've found a genetic predisposition to it, sin is still sin even if one person is more prone to that specific sin than someone else, they all need Christ.

Many think that dismissing their excuses will leave them with nothing to hold to but Christ, when in fact it has the opposite effect, it shows we don't care about the deeper issues, and only want conformity, which is NOT the message of Christ, and will be rejected as hypocritical.

Rather than pretending these things aren't real (or at least very real to them) shouldn't we encourage them to seek a God that is greater than genetics, greater than the abuse, and greater than the temptations?

[RamboPreacher]

...

I 100% agree, and that's why it's important that we really honestly look at what they are saying, if ANY of it is valid, then deal with it rather than ignoring it.

So what if it is accepted by the world, it's not by Christ, so what if they've found a genetic predisposition to it, sin is still sin even if one person is more prone to that specific sin than someone else, they all need Christ.

Many think that dismissing their excuses will leave them with nothing to hold to but Christ, when in fact it has the opposite effect, it shows we don't care about the deeper issues, and only want conformity, which is NOT the message of Christ, and will be rejected as hypocritical.

Rather than pretending these things aren't real (or at least very real to them) shouldn't we encourage them to seek a God that is greater than genetics, greater than the abuse, and greater than the temptations?

exactly, Pastor Bill.
this is exactly my paradigm and what I had been posting about and expressing on this topic. thank you.

[Pastor Bill]

Racerunner:

It would be nice if your illustration was valid.....alas it is not.

I understand as much as anyone about deliverance. I understand the biblical principles you have used.

I also know about the fact that your idea of "instantaneous sanctification" is not very well grounded in scripture nor is it very practical.

You seem to be saying that if one is truly sanctified they will not have a desire for sin.....nothing could be further from the truth.

I do not wish to be argumentative about all this.....just "show me the fruit".

To think that people don't have issues to work through is a "ostrich " view of the spiritual and physical world.

You cannot spiritualize flesh.

Well stated Dr. Ron.

I know that my concurrence may be misunderstood, maybe even demeaned, nevertheless it is worth the risk to personal reputation. This very issue (misunderstanding the true nature and scope of instantaneous sanctification versus the practical issues related thereto while still in the flesh, though no longer of it) is (IMO) a serious source of confusion both for those being taught it and the people doing the teaching.

Instantaneous sanctification is a definite work of grace in the HEART or spiritual nature of man. However, it does not change the nature of our carnal existence itself (the body and mind, their needs, functions, capacities, and desires). We are still in the flesh and must continually mortify it, continually reckoning ourselves dead with Christ by faith in His atoning work, living and walking in the Spirit, so as to receive enabling grace to live without sin.

If a person can be tempted (and let us remember that even Christ was tempted) then they have desires that are attracted to and/or by sinful channels of fulfillment. In easy understood language -- they have desires to sin.

That doesn't mean they desire sin with their heart. It means that they have natural, God given desires that can be, and often are, enticed and excited by sinful perversions of those otherwise neutral God-given passions.

A person who has yielded to and experienced fulfillment of said desires in such a defiled manner, even though now redeemed and cleansed, retains knowledge of that experience and would naturally be prone to temptations relating to their former sins. That is true whatever the sin in question.

Now, I'm not denying special grace is available, for God giveth more grace and is the God of all grace. I am simply saying that personal sanctification, in and of itself does not remove the ability to be tempted, enticed , or to finally yield to sin.

Having said that -- I vehemently DENY that a person truly washed in the blood of the Lamb remains enslaved to sin. That is to say, a sinner who practices homosexuality, when converted, is no longer a homosexual. Yes, when tempted (and admittedly more prone to homosexual temptations) they will need to avail themselves of the grace of God and resist sin, and thus not-practice sin. IN this case not practice homosexuality. NEVERTHELESS, they are no longer homosexuals, even if more readily tempted thereby.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: BUT ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Poimen,

I agree with you on this, it's very well stated, and I agree is a big point of confusion. I think part of the problem is the concept of "being" homosexual doesn't fit anything in scripture, people today define themselves with these labels, and they really are not anything more than a word. We are all sexual beings, and God created us that way, sometimes people are tempted (through many devices and means) to pervert that part of our being, but at the same time, it doesn't change some magic label of who we are.

Drop the labels, or recognize them as nothing of substance and you realize. It's all just sin, we all are tempted to sin, and Christ forgives and gives us strength to overcome temptation.