Smoking a sin? (from doctrine forum)

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bibleguy
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Postby bibleguy » April 7th, 2009, 4:20 pm

JohnDB wrote:RamboPreacher
Anytime someone judges another it is a sin


You mean like this

I do believe that Isaiah 6:9-13 does apply to you.
as well as John 3:12, Mark 12:24; Mt 22:29 & Jn 5:39a

... You need to learn more about the people, the land, and the customs of the day before you claim to have any knowledge.
I don't see you knowing anything of value.


First of all, why is it sin to say someone who sins is a sinner, but its okay to call someone who judges a sinner? Is that not doing what you are condemning in the same breath?

And would you call Jesus a sinner for judging the Pharisees and Saducees of His day, calling them hypocrites and vipers?

Is it sinful to heed Paul's words to “mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.” (Romans 16:17-18). Sounds like some judgment (call it discernment) is called for on the part of the believer.

In all of the "Only God can judge me" talk, other scriptures get left out of the conversation. Scriptures that require someone to assess another's actions, make a judgment about it, and do something about it. Scriptures like, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted” (Gal. 6:1).

Also, “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” (Matt. 18:15-17).

And what about, “But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.” (1 Cor. 5:11-13).

While we cannot judge someone with regards to their salvation, we must have some judgment, Otherwise how would we fulfill Paul's admonision, “Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.” (1 Tim. 5:20). “These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.” (Titus 2:15).

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (2 Tim. 4:1-4)

Warning them that walk unruly (1 Thess. 5:14) expresses a balance between "Judge not" and condemning to hell those that disagree with you.

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins” (Jas 5:19-20).

It doesn't say, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, no one shall say word one about it for if they judge you in any way it shall be sin unto them, except that we also cannot judge them in their judgmentalism."
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Re: with HEAVY sarcasm

Postby bibleguy » April 7th, 2009, 4:30 pm

Poimen wrote:Shoot. I'm so ignorant. What was I thinking?!?! You are guys right. Smoking ain't sinful. Not in the least. It glorifies God. It honors Him. It's edifying to us mentally, physically, and spiritually. It's not defiling or destructive in the least. If Jesus were here he'd light 'em up even! What was I thinking?!?!


Brother Chris, just think of it like incense... :wink:

In reality, I don't see a Scripture forbidding smoking per se, but it is arguably out of sync with God's perfect will for those whom He has called to be perfect. God is calling for a perfect church, without spot or wrinkle.

This means that certain actions that are not necessarily sin are still not expedient for the believer seeking to be made perfect in every good work to do His will, working in him that which is wellpleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever.

And to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" and encourage others to do likewise, is not judgmental or condemnatory.

“Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you” (Philippians 3:15).
Last edited by bibleguy on April 7th, 2009, 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Full Quiver » April 7th, 2009, 6:40 pm

The condemnation of a smoker is only as sinful as the condemnation of any other sinner. :wink:
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Re: with HEAVY sarcasm

Postby Ilovebigcats » April 7th, 2009, 6:44 pm

Poimen wrote:Shoot. I'm so ignorant. What was I thinking?!?! You are guys right. Smoking ain't sinful. Not in the least. It glorifies God. It honors Him. It's edifying to us mentally, physically, and spiritually. It's not defiling or destructive in the least. If Jesus were here he'd light 'em up even! What was I thinking?!?!


Replace "smoking" with "sarcasm." Were you just sinning? Are you going to hell? Is it my place to judge?

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Re: with HEAVY sarcasm

Postby Poimen » April 7th, 2009, 7:56 pm

Ilovebigcats wrote:
Poimen wrote:Shoot. I'm so ignorant. What was I thinking?!?! You are guys right. Smoking ain't sinful. Not in the least. It glorifies God. It honors Him. It's edifying to us mentally, physically, and spiritually. It's not defiling or destructive in the least. If Jesus were here he'd light 'em up even! What was I thinking?!?!


Replace "smoking" with "sarcasm." Were you just sinning? Are you going to hell? Is it my place to judge?


HUH? :? Am I to infer that you believe hyperbolic sarcasm to be sinful? :?:
Seriously, you lost me here.
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Postby JohnDB » April 7th, 2009, 11:46 pm

By Jove,
Someone finally got one right...

never thought I would see the day.

Musta heard it from someone else.
I want to die like Grandpa, quietly and in his sleep; not like the passengers in his car, they were all panicking and screaming.

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Postby dolfan » April 8th, 2009, 4:53 am

There's no virtue in smoking that I can come up with. And, I get Poimen's point -- and would point out further that "if there be any virtue .... think on these things." Without virtue, the reasoning would be, why devote thought and action to it?

It's a good point. But, what do we do with it? Seriously. If that is applied to lead people to not smoke, we should find a way to apply it with at least as much fervor and devotion to everything we do and say. In perfection, that rule of life would be applied so that there is never idleness of thought -- let alone action -- in the mind of those who belong to Christ. Well, we're not perfect yet. Some are more than others, admittedly (and I am not being sarcastic). So, what do you do? Is it enough to point to the rule and say, "Do this and live" with the intention that it also mean "don't do that and live"? If that's the real way, then we've all missed the boat somehow because it is an overtly technical, mechanical and judgmental way that we've all here experienced. Or, is it, "do this and live" with the intention that it mean also "live better and you'll be empowered more, equipped more to do this." I think, personally, that's Poimen's attitude, and I think it is the right one, even if he and I would differ some on how you do that. Personally, I've interacted with him enough to believe the best about his view on something I don't necessarily see as he does.
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Postby RaceRunner » April 8th, 2009, 5:08 am

Since it seems lately....As goes Jude2...so goes your Assembly.... :wink: :?

Are ya'll hoping that these two current teachings will be next on a future agenda?

Against the Use of Tobacco in Any Form, Opium, Morphine, Etc.
The use of tobacco and the habitual use of narcotics are sinful practices which defile the body, the temple of the Holy Ghost, and is an outward evidence of an impure heart. Read Isaiah 55:2; 1 Corinthians 10:31, 32; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Ephesians 5:3-8; James 1:21.

Total Abstinence from all Liquor or Strong Drinks
The Bible expressly forbids the use of intoxicating beverages. Even slight indulgence is not in keeping with the Scriptural standard of holiness. Read Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-32; Isaiah 28:7; 1 Corinthians 5:1 1; 6:10; Galatians 5:21.

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Postby RamboPreacher » April 8th, 2009, 5:23 am

http://cogop.org/219654.ihtml:
The Covenant Relationship
of the Church of God of Prophecy

"We have joined ourselves together in Christ as a fellowship of believers by covenanting to accept the Bible as the Word of God, promising to believe and practice its teachings rightly divided with the New Testament as our rule of faith and practice, government and discipline, and agreeing to walk in the light to the best of our knowledge and ability."
Thanks, Brent "RamboPreacher" Hoefling

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Postby one love » April 8th, 2009, 6:07 am

RamboPreacher wrote:http://cogop.org/219654.ihtml:
The Covenant Relationship
of the Church of God of Prophecy

"We have joined ourselves together in Christ as a fellowship of believers by covenanting to accept the Bible as the Word of God, promising to believe and practice its teachings rightly divided with the New Testament as our rule of faith and practice, government and discipline, and agreeing to walk in the light to the best of our knowledge and ability."


Well rambo i understand what you are saying but the "official teachings" of COGOP states total abstinence from alcohol and tobacco and also implies that of a IMPURE heart. I am curious as well and Have been while debating these topics, is there a desire to change those two teachings? Maybe a poll would help, do you think it should change?

If one reads your official teachings they would assume the denomination believes it is wrong and that of a Impure heart, that the COGOP believes total abstinence...


Notice :"believe and practice its teachings"
Last edited by one love on April 8th, 2009, 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby RaceRunner » April 8th, 2009, 6:07 am

RamboPreacher wrote:http://cogop.org/219654.ihtml:
The Covenant Relationship
of the Church of God of Prophecy

"We have joined ourselves together in Christ as a fellowship of believers by covenanting to accept the Bible as the Word of God, promising to believe and practice its teachings rightly divided with the New Testament as our rule of faith and practice, government and discipline, and agreeing to walk in the light to the best of our knowledge and ability."


I'm highly aquainted with the Covenant and am currently teaching it in a Word Study format as local BTI leader.

But doesn't really answer the question....but I get your gist...

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Postby RamboPreacher » April 8th, 2009, 6:18 am

one love wrote:
RamboPreacher wrote:http://cogop.org/219654.ihtml:
The Covenant Relationship
of the Church of God of Prophecy

"We have joined ourselves together in Christ as a fellowship of believers by covenanting to accept the Bible as the Word of God, promising to believe and practice its teachings rightly divided with the New Testament as our rule of faith and practice, government and discipline, and agreeing to walk in the light to the best of our knowledge and ability."


Well rambo i understand what you are saying but the "official teachings" of COGOP states total abstinence from alcohol and tobacco and also implies that of a IMPURE heart. I am curious as well and Have been while debating these topics, is there a desire to change those two teachings? Maybe a poll would help, do you think it should change?

If one reads your official teachings they would assume the denomination believes it is wrong and that of a Impure heart, that the COGOP believes total abstinence...

Notice :"believe and practice its teachings"
Notice, context is about the Bible, correctly handled/rightly divided (not church teachings)- AND "walk in the light to the best of our knowledge and ability", also referring to God's Word ("the Bible").

is there a desire at the International offices to change these teachings? I don't know. I am not privy to those kinds of meetings, if they are happening.

(Also Note that you need to read the whole thread starting from the currently locked doctrine forum - this discussion is about whether smoking and drinking, in and of themselves are "sin". if you read you will see that I am personally NOT advocating drinking or smoking, only discussing the topic)
Thanks, Brent "RamboPreacher" Hoefling

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Postby Poimen » April 8th, 2009, 7:47 am

dolfan wrote:There's no virtue in smoking that I can come up with. And, I get Poimen's point -- and would point out further that "if there be any virtue .... think on these things." Without virtue, the reasoning would be, why devote thought and action to it?


Thank you. It seems you may have better stated what it is I was actually trying to get across.

Or, is it, "do this and live" with the intention that it mean also "live better and you'll be empowered more, equipped more to do this." I think, personally, that's Poimen's attitude, and I think it is the right one, even if he and I would differ some on how you do that. Personally, I've interacted with him enough to believe the best about his view on something I don't necessarily see as he does.


That's my feeling about it, precisely! Man, you know me so well to never have met me in person. :shock: :lol:

I actually have several folks in my congregation (3 in fact, maybe 4) who struggle with tobacco use. I teach straight about the issue. I declare it sinful. YET, I teach them about God's grace and how cooperating with it empowers and enables us to be OVERCOMERS. I don't throw them away because of the struggle. Nor do I beat them over the head because of the issue. Rather, I seek to provoke them to trust in and long for greater grace by pointing out the vileness connected with the practice and comparing it with the purity and beauty of Christ, urging conformity thereto.

It's a good point. But, what do we do with it? Seriously. If that is applied to lead people to not smoke, we should find a way to apply it with at least as much fervor and devotion to everything we do and say. In perfection, that rule of life would be applied so that there is never idleness of thought -- let alone action -- in the mind of those who belong to Christ. Well, we're not perfect yet. Some are more than others, admittedly (and I am not being sarcastic). So, what do you do?


We certainly don't AVOID the principle, whatever it's ramifications for ALL of our lives. It just so happens (IMO) that in relation to tobacco use, which many new converts (and some old ones) struggle with, that this is a clear case for practical application of the premise.
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Postby bibleguy » April 8th, 2009, 10:25 am

I think that we should aspire to godliness and perfection, as it is the goal. The Bride must make herself ready, and we should encourage other believers to be MORE separate, MORE of a peculiar people, LESS aligned with the ways of the world.

When we do so, some will inevitably justify themselves and get offended that anyone would encourage them to examine their activities, accusing you of being judgmental and condemnatory. Just because smoking may not be clearly classified as sin does not mean that it is good for believers to engage in it.

There is a high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Jesus died in our place, therefore our life is no more, we owe a life-debt to our Lord. Yes, He freed us and saved us, but He did not do that so that we could just do whatever we think or want, no He did that so that we could serve Him -- so that in would be no more us who men see, but Christ in us the hope of glory.

Every aspect of our life should reflect that desire!
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Postby Paully_44 » April 8th, 2009, 10:54 am

I am just glad the God has not put me in charge of judging who is saved or not.
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