Unconventional and Unforgettable Dads” was the title of Oprah’s April 13 broadcast in which she shamelessly promoted gay adoption, featuring a touching story about a famous author and his “unconventional family.”
This is Normal? Oprah and Obama have a simular point of view when it comes to gay marriages. Know where the world is headed? When they call this abomination "normal" Oprah prasies them for bringing children into this abomination.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/erin-brown ... once-again
Oprah Redefines Normal Once Again
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Brandon Bowers
- Needs a hobby
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Brandon Bowers wrote:This is a very real issue, whether we like it or not. How we deal with it will determine the future of the church.
No way! The future of the church has already been predetermined by God. It can do nothing but that. Now, our part in the church is a different story. But no social agenda, no earthly power, do demonic force, determines the future of the church. Christ has already determined, purchased, and sealed our future -- the gates of hell shall not prevail.
Speak the truth. Speak it in love. Speak it uncompromisingly, and unashamedly. Speak it that other may hear and know the freedom we now know after having heard and received the love of the truth ourselves.
Last edited by Poimen on April 22nd, 2009, 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
"I wish a buck was still silver, it was back when the country was strong." -- The Hag
Bro. Christopher
"I wish a buck was still silver, it was back when the country was strong." -- The Hag
I do agree to a point that the church has a work to do and with this belief that these are now "normal families" it's become a greater task. People are really are falling for these lies. We must always in season and out of season stand for the truth, more than ever.
Poimen, great reply.
"Christ has already determined, purchased, and sealed our future -- the gates of hell shall not prevail. "
Speak the truth. Speak it in love. Speak it uncompromisingly, and unashamedly. Speak it that other may hear and now the freedom we now know after having heard and received the love of the truth ourselves.
Poimen, great reply.
"Christ has already determined, purchased, and sealed our future -- the gates of hell shall not prevail. "
Speak the truth. Speak it in love. Speak it uncompromisingly, and unashamedly. Speak it that other may hear and now the freedom we now know after having heard and received the love of the truth ourselves.
Last edited by beckrl on April 22nd, 2009, 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Poimen wrote:Brandon Bowers wrote:This is a very real issue, whether we like it or not. How we deal with it will determine the future of the church.
No way! The future of the church has already been predetermined by God. It can do nothing but that. Now, our part in the church is a different story. But no social agenda, no earthly power, do demonic force, determines the future of the church. Christ has already determined, purchased, and sealed our future -- the gates of hell shall not prevail.
Speak the truth. Speak it in love. Speak it uncompromisingly, and unashamedly. Speak it that other may hear and now the freedom we now know after having heard and received the love of the truth ourselves.
Great post Chris!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The church is predetermined it cant fail but we can personally! So the issue could effect us, but not the destiny of his glorious church that he purchased
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dolfan
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I can't get past the repugnancy of homosexual conduct. But, I do still maintain that the church would be better equipped to deal with it in a winsome way if it would make its own plea to the government to stop regulating marriage as marriage and strip all laws about domestic relationships of any reference to the word.
Tim Elston won't agree with me
but I remain convinced. I think, too, that society would be less contentious about these things if marriage were strictly a religious matter.
Tim Elston won't agree with me
but I remain convinced. I think, too, that society would be less contentious about these things if marriage were strictly a religious matter.Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
dolfan wrote:I think, too, that society would be less contentious about these things if marriage were strictly a religious matter.
The problem there Tim, is that Biblically, marriage is not ONLY religious in nature. And this goes to the point that one cannot truly separate life from religion, society from theology, nor creation from the Creator, however hard they might try.
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
"I wish a buck was still silver, it was back when the country was strong." -- The Hag
Bro. Christopher
"I wish a buck was still silver, it was back when the country was strong." -- The Hag
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dolfan
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If that's so, and I agree that faith and the rest of life can't be segregated, how can the church be separate from the world? That's a constant refrain. If we truly are unable to keep the sacred sacred, then shouldn't we be willing to see society mock our other sacraments en masse and just deal with it politically? And, while I understand and sympathize with the conviction of it all, and agree with that in my core, I simply see another reality at work here ---- that civil law has destroyed the institution of marriage in society. When something actually becomes hostile to what is to be sacred, and that "something" (civil law) is wholly unnecessary to biblical marriage (nations far and away don't have anything as close to a formal, legal regulation of marriage, but it is still marriage), why should we continue to defend keeping the holy thing (marriage) swirling around in a toilet? That's how strongly I honestly see what the law has done to marriage. I just don't understand leaving it that way is all.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
dolfan wrote:If we truly are unable to keep the sacred sacred, then shouldn't we be willing to see society mock our other sacraments en masse and just deal with it politically?
Not at all! And that's not what I meant to convey. It is not that we can't keep the sacred sacred, is that even the secular is in truth submissive to the sacred (whether they like it, admit, know it or not). At the very least, thankfully, the Ruler of all creation will judge the nations for this and other things in the coming of His Kingdom visible to the Earth.
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
"I wish a buck was still silver, it was back when the country was strong." -- The Hag
Bro. Christopher
"I wish a buck was still silver, it was back when the country was strong." -- The Hag
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dolfan
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I know you didn't mean that. That's just my way of arguing a point, and I'm sorry for insinuating you might've meant that. Wasn't my intent, I promise.
And, yes, God will judge. I am certain of that down to my bones. But, it just crawls me to no end to see marriage just so cavalierly discarded.
Tonight, I was closing the store and the cashier was counting down for the night and chatting about her boyfriend. She made a reference to "when I was single." I had to bite my tongue. You ARE single, I thought. You're not married. If you're not married, you're single. That kind of carelessness of thought about relationships and significance is what helps promote this whole crazy topsy-turvy destruction of marriage.
If the church is going to make a moral stand and speak in a prophetic way about marriage to the world, I think it has to get serious about what biblical marriage is, about what biblical relationships are in general. But, condemning the homosexuals isn't going to actually DO anything. Yet, (and watch me argue with myself here -- I do that) there are instances aplenty in the OT where prophetic voices fell on deaf ears, and the prophets pretty well knew that was the deal and did it anyway. My question, I think, is does the church have the moral authority to speak prophetically if the people currently constituting it don't clean up their own house on the marriage issue first?
You know, I am one of the many here who don't believe that a remarriage (what some here honestly and sincerely view as "double marriage") is a ticket to hell. I believe people can be Christian, devoted Christ followers and be on a second marriage, etc. BUT, seems to me that there has to be some hard examination by church leaders, pastors, about the gravity of biblical marriage and what it means to God, and what it means in terms of eternity on people. I guess part of me is just scared about all that. I'm concerned about it, for sure. That's why I tend to think that --- like most everything else government does --- marriage is better off without being subject to civil authorities. Of course, I know there are others with views informed at least as well as mine and who disagree. I don't know the practical solutions to this stuff.
And, yes, God will judge. I am certain of that down to my bones. But, it just crawls me to no end to see marriage just so cavalierly discarded.
Tonight, I was closing the store and the cashier was counting down for the night and chatting about her boyfriend. She made a reference to "when I was single." I had to bite my tongue. You ARE single, I thought. You're not married. If you're not married, you're single. That kind of carelessness of thought about relationships and significance is what helps promote this whole crazy topsy-turvy destruction of marriage.
If the church is going to make a moral stand and speak in a prophetic way about marriage to the world, I think it has to get serious about what biblical marriage is, about what biblical relationships are in general. But, condemning the homosexuals isn't going to actually DO anything. Yet, (and watch me argue with myself here -- I do that) there are instances aplenty in the OT where prophetic voices fell on deaf ears, and the prophets pretty well knew that was the deal and did it anyway. My question, I think, is does the church have the moral authority to speak prophetically if the people currently constituting it don't clean up their own house on the marriage issue first?
You know, I am one of the many here who don't believe that a remarriage (what some here honestly and sincerely view as "double marriage") is a ticket to hell. I believe people can be Christian, devoted Christ followers and be on a second marriage, etc. BUT, seems to me that there has to be some hard examination by church leaders, pastors, about the gravity of biblical marriage and what it means to God, and what it means in terms of eternity on people. I guess part of me is just scared about all that. I'm concerned about it, for sure. That's why I tend to think that --- like most everything else government does --- marriage is better off without being subject to civil authorities. Of course, I know there are others with views informed at least as well as mine and who disagree. I don't know the practical solutions to this stuff.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
dolfan,
If the Church is going to do anything.. it's going to have start educating, period and become effective in this generation. The fact that we toss our kids/youth to reprobate public school systems and then demand they not be effected is ludicrous.
Sundays and Wednesday nights don't cut it any longer.
If the Church is going to do anything.. it's going to have start educating, period and become effective in this generation. The fact that we toss our kids/youth to reprobate public school systems and then demand they not be effected is ludicrous.
Sundays and Wednesday nights don't cut it any longer.
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Mike Vande
- I like flapjacks.
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Brandon Bowers wrote:How we deal with it will determine the future of the church.
No, that's not true, not even close. The Lord God Almighty has already determined every detail of the future of the Church. We win.
I know it's true because I've read the end of the book. There is nothing new under the sun. There have always been demagogues and deceived power mongers around, pushing an anti-christian world view. They might shake up those of little faith, but God always has a remnant. Neither Oprah or Obama, or any of their predecessors had or have the power to interfere with God's plan for the Church. He already knew who they would be and what the could do when he created the universe. They didn't come close to surprising Him, and believe it or not, He isn't in Heaven wringing His hands and slapping Himself on the forehead, crying "Oh Myself, Oprah and Obama have completely destroyed my plan for the church, and I couldn't do anything about it!!!" No matter what they do, whatever they intend for evil to the church, God intends for good.
Get real.
Why is it that bad decisions seem to make to most interesting testimonies?
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Brandon Bowers
- Needs a hobby
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Let me clarify what I meant..
I agree with you guys that God has already determined the end. I wasn't talking about that.. But we are the church, the ekklesia.. How we choose to react to people and issues shapes our evangelism, our discipleship, and our fellowship (among other things).
So how we choose to deal with homosexuality will in fact shape the future of our churches.
Will you allow homosexuals in your church?
Can they serve in any capacity? If so, in what capacity?
Do we allow them in our small groups? If so, do we allow them to be transparent about their lifestyles?
Do we fellowship with homosexuals? If so, on what level?
Are you willing to do as Jesus did by hanging out with tax collectors? They were the scum of the earth during his time. Today, I'd say (according to the established churches) homosexuals are the scum of the earth today.
So yes, how we deal with this issue will shape the future of our churches. We are out to seek the lost and guide them to Christ. By doing that alone, homosexuals (or what we hope will eventually be ex-homosexuals) will shape the future of our churches.
The only way to keep this from happenning is to ignore the homosexual issue. By doing that, you ignore the homosexual people. In that, you'll never reach them, which is our Christ mandated mission. And so goes the rabbit trail.
I would challenge my fellow pastors and laypeople on here to really get together and soften your hearts on the homosexual issue. I'm not saying you should accept the sin, but we do need to accept the person. Choose to love them. That's the first step. If there's a growing homosexual population in your communities, I would also suggest coming up with a strategy to reach that group.
Homosexuals are still interested in God matters. They're just afraid of us because we come off as judgemental and mean.
I agree with you guys that God has already determined the end. I wasn't talking about that.. But we are the church, the ekklesia.. How we choose to react to people and issues shapes our evangelism, our discipleship, and our fellowship (among other things).
So how we choose to deal with homosexuality will in fact shape the future of our churches.
Will you allow homosexuals in your church?
Can they serve in any capacity? If so, in what capacity?
Do we allow them in our small groups? If so, do we allow them to be transparent about their lifestyles?
Do we fellowship with homosexuals? If so, on what level?
Are you willing to do as Jesus did by hanging out with tax collectors? They were the scum of the earth during his time. Today, I'd say (according to the established churches) homosexuals are the scum of the earth today.
So yes, how we deal with this issue will shape the future of our churches. We are out to seek the lost and guide them to Christ. By doing that alone, homosexuals (or what we hope will eventually be ex-homosexuals) will shape the future of our churches.
The only way to keep this from happenning is to ignore the homosexual issue. By doing that, you ignore the homosexual people. In that, you'll never reach them, which is our Christ mandated mission. And so goes the rabbit trail.
I would challenge my fellow pastors and laypeople on here to really get together and soften your hearts on the homosexual issue. I'm not saying you should accept the sin, but we do need to accept the person. Choose to love them. That's the first step. If there's a growing homosexual population in your communities, I would also suggest coming up with a strategy to reach that group.
Homosexuals are still interested in God matters. They're just afraid of us because we come off as judgemental and mean.
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paul
- I can see clearly now!
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dolfan
My question, I think, is does the church have the moral authority to speak prophetically if the people currently constituting it don't clean up their own house on the marriage issue first?
You cannot effectively love and minister to others when you are obsessed with protecting
and preserving yourself.
and preserving yourself.
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