what do you make of this

[Full Quiver]

A few weeks back there was a thread or two about Rick Warren and his stance on Prop 8. I emailed and this is what I got.

Thanks for your note.



I can only imagine the frustration you felt as you wrote this note. Writing a note like this to a pastor takes you through a variety of different emotions. You like many others wrote in and mentioned that Pastor Rick’s comments on Larry King confused you. I understand, so it’s my hope this reply will help reaffirm your belief in Pastor Rick and settle this for you.



Throughout his pastoral ministry spanning nearly 30 years, Pastor Rick remains committed to the Biblical definition of marriage as between one man and one woman, for life -- a position held by most fellow Evangelical pastors around the world.



When Pastor Rick told Larry King he never campaigned for California's Proposition 8, he was referring to not participating in the official two-year organized advocacy effort specific to the ballot initiative in that state, based on his focus and leadership on other compassion issues. Because he's a pastor, not an activist, in response to inquiries from church members, he issued an email and video message to his congregation days before the election confirming where he and Saddleback Church stood on this issue.



Pastor Rick also referenced a letter of apology, during the interview, he sent to gay leaders whom he knew personally. This apology was not with respect to his statements or position on Proposition 8 nor the Biblical worldview on marriage. Rather, he apologized for his comments in an earlier Beliefnet interview expressing his concern about expanding or redefining the definition of marriage beyond a husband-wife relationship, during which he unintentionally and regrettably gave the impression that consensual adult same sex relationships were equivalent to incest or pedophilia.



I hope this helped.



Thanks for asking,



David Chrzan

Chief of Staff

Saddleback Church

What do you make of it?

[bibleguy]

Not trying to nit-pick here, but when he said "he unintentionally and regrettably gave the impression that consensual adult same sex relationships were equivalent to incest or pedophilia," I wonder why we shouldn't?

Incest is not always an adult forcing himself/herself on a child relative, but it can also be "kissing cousins."

Not unlike this attempt to separate homosexuals from pedophilia, have you noticed that in all the talk about the Catholic priests, they are always billed as child molesters or pedophiles, but the vast majority of the perversion was perpetrated against boys. That also makes them homosexuals.

Now, I know that not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but a large part of pedophiles are homosexuals. I'm not sure what he said that caused him to connect pedophiles and queers, but perversion is perversion.

Why, then, should apologies be made to perverts? Our society has so succumbed to the brainwashing, and it is easily seen how Jesus' words can be fulfilled, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” (Matt. 24:24)*

* DISCLAIMER: I only cite this verse as evidence that even "good Christians" are potentially susceptible to deception, not for any reference to anyone in particular in connection with the "false Christ" idea. We just need to be aware that the society, by way of the media, the educational system, peer pressure, and various other means, is in an all-out attempt to dissuade us from our core beliefs and values, as was done and recorded before in the Scriptural accounts of Balaam and Jezebel.

[beckrl]

Sounds like to me he is still trying to play both sides

[Richard Neal]

I got exactly the same reply, Word for Word. I personally believe he said what he believed the first time. He is so popular now that he feels he can no longer take a stand without losing the influence he need to promote his agenda of peace and help for AIDs.

He has really broken my heart. I have used everything he has put out so far. Just finished the 40 days of Love campaign when this Larry King interview broke.

I emailed every email address that I could find on him, posted on his blog (his personal pastor’s blog) and that is the only response that I have received to date. I no longer feel good about using his material. I feel his material is good and useful, but it raises too many questions that detract from what we are trying to accomplish.

I replied to the email that I could not accept their explanation and said I would continue to pray for them and for them to pray for me. And, if he is right maybe the Lord would bring me around. I truly love the man and feel the Lord has used him mightily up until the present time.

God Bless

[EagerBeaver]

Two words:

Damage Control

[one love]

he is to big now and his "chief of staff" is telling all is well.....

I think something is really wrong and weird about the entire thing and his involvement with Obama.

[Pastor Gary]

I confess a bit of bias; I like Warren, and I believe he is a good man.

A few things in this thread concern me:

Warren - "he unintentionally and regrettably gave the impression that consensual adult same sex relationships were equivalent to incest or pedophilia."

Bibleguy - "I know that not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but a large part of pedophiles are homosexuals."

While I am not in favor of either homosexuality or pedophilia, it does our cause no good to cite such erroneous assumptions that are easily debunked by science and statistical analysis. In the cursory research I have done on this subject, I just don't think your assertion is (a) correct, and (b) fair.

Almost every unbiased research study done without the intent to support an agenda reveals that a child is far more likely to be sexually molested/abused by a heterosexual than a homosexual.

[dalebert]

PG wrote:

Almost every unbiased research study done without the intent to support an agenda reveals that a child is far more likely to be sexually molested/abused by a heterosexual than a homosexual.

Now u see, i would never given that a thought except that one case that was close to me that dealt with child molesting was a heterosexual and a case that is not as close to me but has to do with someones past that i know was also a heterosexual. But i can see how one would think that homosexuals would be a major contributor to child molesting....not accusing just assuming ....

[dolfan]

I confess a bit of bias; I like Warren, and I believe he is a good man.

A few things in this thread concern me:

Warren - "he unintentionally and regrettably gave the impression that consensual adult same sex relationships were equivalent to incest or pedophilia."

Bibleguy - "I know that not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but a large part of pedophiles are homosexuals."

While I am not in favor of either homosexuality or pedophilia, it does our cause no good to cite such erroneous assumptions that are easily debunked by science and statistical analysis. In the cursory research I have done on this subject, I just don't think your assertion is (a) correct, and (b) fair.

Almost every unbiased research study done without the intent to support an agenda reveals that a child is far more likely to be sexually molested/abused by a heterosexual than a homosexual.

I'd like to read those studies, PG, but for an entirely different reason wholly related to the law.

I admit, I like Warren and I'm bored by him at the same time, but also admit that I'm real slow right now to read more into this than a clumsy attempt to navigate the relational waters Warren is treading and to be true to Christian teaching in ways that are palatable enough to those he depends on to buy his stuff. Aside from the obvious problems of being in that position in the first place, right now at least I'm giving Warren a benefit of the doubt. For now.

But, on this other idea that "a large part of pedophiles are homosexuals". A larger part of pedophiles are married white men. A large part of pedophiles are working in evangelical, conservative, traditional churches in some role. Some part of pedophiles are [gasp] preachers and SS teachers. See how recklessly taking a big brush and smearing a whole group of people with it looks? Not pretty.

Yet, we all do it. Laws are passed intending to protect kids from pedophiles, but are aimed at keeping away from children people who've never hurt a kid and wouldn't. It is another studied fact that way far and away most rapists and people convicted of sexually assaulting a grown woman pose no danger to doing such things to kids; yet, we've poured millions and millions of dollars into enforcing a scheme designed to keep people guilty of raping and assaulting adult women living way away from schools and day cares in the name of protecting kids from pedophiles. It makes us feel better. It is bad policy from a fiscal standpoint, and it is bad policy causing offenders to become desperate, virtually homeless in some states (like Alabama) and more likely to actually re-offend.

I submit to you that, without some kind of real evidence that Rick Warren is capitulating to homosexuals on a point of biblical truth, we run the risk of overapplying what it is he says he's convicted and convinced is the truth. I think he's earned enough trust from the rest of us at this point that we shouldn't undermine all the work he's been able to do and accomplish in Jesus' name on such a specious set of unfounded assumptions. We're so biased on issues of sexuality that we need to back up and let this man whom God called live up to his calling in the best way he can, trusting those to whom he is accountable to exercise that accountability more wisely than we could hope to since they are there with him and we're not.

Not to excuse Warren if he is, in fact, capitulating, but let's just prayerfully wait and see what he does. If you don't want to buy and use his materials, don't. (Personally, I think it is a good bit of well-intended hogwash that ran its course some years ago, and that would be my reason for not buying it over what he's doing about Prop 8 now.) But, if you see good from the work he's doing and you see it locally, then don't shoot the cause in the foot over what we know to date.

[MacUser]

Two words:

Damage Control

Bingo. Your response was right on target Beav.

He is essentially trying to re-create the gray operation area that will not be allowed to exist any longer. AND it's not from our side.. but the extreme liberal left side. These extreme groups are shutting down ALL avenues of reaching these individuals.

Soon.. you will not be able to "grunt" without be called out. SO develop a THICK skin and let's employ another bold agenda... the TRUTH.

[EagerBeaver]

Two words:

Damage Control

Bingo. Your response was right on target Beav.

He is essentially trying to re-create the gray operation area that will not be allowed to exist any longer. AND it's not from our side.. but the extreme liberal left side. These extreme groups are shutting down ALL avenues of reaching these individuals.

Soon.. you will not be able to "grunt" without be called out. SO develop a THICK skin and let's employ another bold agenda... the TRUTH.

You're right about that MU. God help us if one of the most prominent and well-respected ministers in the Christian community at large very deftly toes a moral line and we all still continue to look to that leadership example while failing to check it against Biblical truth.

The Word says that in the last days the very elect will be deceived -- now most everyone on here knows my opinion on what we call the "last days", but I believe we are seeing a greater and greater number of Christians and Christian ministers begin to incorporate elements of moral relativism, paganism and straight up Godlessness in their teachings.

And we wonder why Christianity is declining in this nation? It's being eaten away from the inside out.

There is still hope though, amid all the shenanigans in the body of Christ, I do believe that for every wolf wearing sheepskin there is someone declaring Prepare ye the way of the Lord.

[beckrl]

Pastor Gary

Almost every unbiased research study done without the intent to support an agenda reveals that a child is far more likely to be sexually molested/abused by a heterosexual than a homosexual.

Have that study included the COGIC?

[bibleguy]

I confess a bit of bias; I like Warren, and I believe he is a good man.

A few things in this thread concern me:

Warren - "he unintentionally and regrettably gave the impression that consensual adult same sex relationships were equivalent to incest or pedophilia."

Bibleguy - "I know that not all homosexuals are pedophiles, but a large part of pedophiles are homosexuals."

While I am not in favor of either homosexuality or pedophilia, it does our cause no good to cite such erroneous assumptions that are easily debunked by science and statistical analysis. In the cursory research I have done on this subject, I just don't think your assertion is (a) correct, and (b) fair.

Almost every unbiased research study done without the intent to support an agenda reveals that a child is far more likely to be sexually molested/abused by a heterosexual than a homosexual.

Is it not true that boys are more often molested by men than women? By definition, then, these acts are homosexual in nature, regardless of the fact that said men also engage in heterosexual acts. Men who abuse boys are HOMOSEXUALS (or at least bisexual). Calling them pedophiles takes the sting out of the connection to the homosexual tendencies of the perps.

Plus, it is OBVIOUS that most sex crimes are perpetrated by heteros, since they make up the greater portion of the population. I did not even say that a majority of pedophiles are homos, only that a "large part" are. That is not an incorrect statement.

[Full Quiver]

Does it really matter? Homosexuality is sinful and so is child molestation and incest. My guess is the problem lies in that you probably won't hear this taught from Warren's pulpit. He may personally believe them to be sinful but in order not to offend he would steer away from communicating his belief.

Sure there are many things to preach on and teach about but these should be included and never should we side step or dodge the truth.

I personally am still confused about the response I got and that makes it sound less and less from the Word since God doesn't author confusion.