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[Poimen]

Little Sister,

Don't worry about election/predestination.

I don't believe in it but Spurgeon did and he said that the elect don't have a mark on their back to identify them. Therefore he must preach to all and treat all as if they are the elect and present all with the gospel of Christ.

Therefore, if you trully come (or have come) to Him then you are by such estimation elect, unless of course you fall away, then you were a false convert.

To "us" (those who don't believe in Calvinistic predestination) God wishes or chooses for all to come to Him and thus all are in some fashion elect. However, it is up to you to make your calling and election sure as you follow the Lord and grow in your relationship with him.

So generally, as to the practical application of either view, the important thing is coming to Christ and faithfully following or being committed to him.

He'll take care of the rest.

[Tracy]

Little Sister wrote:

I'm trying to be open. But there is another belief people have that is greatly disturbing to me... the belief that God has already chosen a certain few and that He only seeks those out. So, I sit here and wonder if I'm one that He has chosen and will seek (or is seeking) If I am not, my searching/seeking will be in vain?

I do believe, like Spurgeon, that the Bible teaches that God has predestined some, and that those are the ones who will come.

And Poimen is right: what it comes down to is, "Will you have Him?" Whosoever wills may come (John 3:16). God always accepts a repentant heart.

Jesus' sheep hear His voice and they follow Him (John 10:27). If you have any inclination towards God, any desire to seek Him and search for Him (and it sounds like you do), then God put that desire there. For of themselves, no one seeks for God (Rom 3:11). Any Spiritual inclinations toward God that you have are from God, for God turns the heart wherever He wishes (Prov. 21:1).

Your searching and seeking is not in vain. If God weren't working on your heart you wouldn't even care if you were elect.

I love you and will be praying for you,

Tracy

[Pastor Bill]

Little Sister,

on the Predestination thing, there is alot of conflicting opinions, and deep discussions that can center around this, but basically here is what I see.

God knows the future, and it is possible that God, in knowing who will choose him has basically predestined things, but honestly we don't know the mind of God, and we won't, so don't worry about it.

Focus on these things instead.

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

[panhandler]

Little Sister,

on the Predestination thing, there is alot of conflicting opinions, and deep discussions that can center around this, but basically here is what I see.

God knows the future, and it is possible that God, in knowing who will choose him has basically predestined things, but honestly we don't know the mind of God, and we won't, so don't worry about it.

Focus on these things instead.

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Pastor Bill. once againg good instruction! I believe that the reason Romans : 28-29 bear out that God DOES know, therefore He predestinates our lives to become like Christ! He never takes away our free will, but obviously being "all Knowing" He uses the events (even our choices) to change us into the image of Jesus. I'm loving this!

[Little Sister]

Thank you all (Poimen, Tracy & Pastor Bill) for your responses. This has given me SO much to mentally chew on. So many thoughts and questions bouncing around the confused state of my mind. I think I'm trying to get a grasp on "limited atonement" and "Predestination" and they're blurring together... (I do better at getting a grasp on things when someone includes a dry-erase board and markers!!)

Is it correct or incorrect to say that "limited atonement" is the belief that God only sent Jesus to die on the cross for the sins of the chosen (or "Predestined")??

I just asked my husband if they were the same thing and he simply said "no..."
For right now, I'll just let it go at that because we had an extremely rough day with our 1 and only vehicle losing 3rd gear. and I don't think he's got the wherewithal tonight to tolerate my inquiring mind that often goes in circles.... like when our printer at work has a job stuck in it and says "Spooling...." That's my brain!

[Poimen]

Keep in mind that my comments are coming from one OUTSIDE of the Calvinist camp. However...


Though one may see that Predestination and Limited Atonement are separate subjects they are not disconnected from each other theologically. In order for one to hold to Predestination they need Limited Atonement to support their proposition. This is because a universal view of atonement (and I use that wording loosely) creates a break in the systematic flow of TULIP ... IMO.

If God elects some to be saved, and those elected are therefore predestined and cannot resist the grace of God which causes them to be regenerated and thus repent, while others are left to themselves (not elected) then the atonement (logically) can only be for those elected. Therefore to hold to Calvin's proposition one must accept Limited Atonement.

Otherwise one leaves the door open for the possibility that any (as opposed to just the elect) may come to God, and that God calls all to come. This possibility would undue all of the TULIP (except perhaps the T).


I'm not trying to side with or against either view in this response. I simply feel that if one desires to hold to Predestination and Election as such then they must logically accept Limited Atonement. Otherwise they are (in my estimation) on their way to being an Arminian.

[Tracy]

Poimen wrote:

Though one may see that Predestination and Limited Atonement are separate subjects they are not disconnected from each other theologically. In order for one to hold to Predestination they need Limited Atonement to support their proposition. This is because a universal view of atonement (and I use that wording loosely) creates a break in the systematic flow of TULIP ... IMO.

Calvinists who do not hold to Definite/Limited Atonement are called Amyraldians. I don't know if I am one or not.

And many agree with you, Poimen, that one must either be a 5 point Calvinist or no Calvinist at all, for all the points depend on and build on each other. In other words, you can't have one without the other if they are defined correctly.

So definitions may be where I need to camp in order to finally settle on one side of the fence; I can't straddle forever.

I have various ideas about it, but I just haven't taken the time to study it. It is going to be a hard, long process and for that reason I think I keep putting it off.


Tracy