United Pentecostal Church

Pastor Bill · Postby **Pastor Bill** » May 27th, 2009, 8:44 am

The ones I know may not be typical though, and I do believe theirs official doctrine in the UPC is more modalist.

scooter · Postby **scooter** » May 27th, 2009, 8:46 am

kurt73 wrote: No where in the UPC or the Apostolic denominations did I hear or read they are modalism.

Response: Now that is funny. I believe that God appears in modes but I'm no modalist. :lol:

Really I've watched them argue this out. I think your view of their beliefs may be a bit narrow.

Some even state that the son did not exist prior to incarnation.

kurt73 · Postby **kurt73** » May 27th, 2009, 8:56 am

scooter wrote:
kurt73 wrote: No where in the UPC or the Apostolic denominations did I hear or read they are modalism.

Response: Now that is funny. I believe that God appears in modes but I'm no modalist.

Really I've watched them argue this out. I think your view of their beliefs may be a bit narrow.

Some even state that the son did not exist prior to incarnation.

Scooter, I can only state what I have seen and can't speak for all. It may be narrow because of what I have seen or read. I'm not defending them or excepting there beliefs. I believe trinity but not the trinity I have read of or heard believing in three seperate gods. Now that maybe coming from UPC people.

If it wasn't God no one would be here, if it wasn't for Jesus I would not be saved and if it wasn't for the Holy Ghost I would be powerless. I need all three in my life!

scooter · Postby **scooter** » May 27th, 2009, 10:08 am

kurt73 wrote:
Scooter, I can only state what I have seen and can't speak for all. It may be narrow because of what I have seen or read. I'm not defending them or excepting there beliefs. I believe trinity but not the trinity I have read of or heard believing in three seperate gods. Now that maybe coming from UPC people.

If it wasn't God no one would be here, if it wasn't for Jesus I would not be saved and if it wasn't for the Holy Ghost I would be powerless. I need all three in my life!

Response: I hear you, much of this is like watching a dog chase his tail.

However, there are those who hold much tighter to the oneness aspects.

It's funny though, here we post from our experience.

Where Bill may be fighting legalism in Ky. I fight liberalism here.

Gerald Creasy · Postby **Gerald Creasy** » May 27th, 2009, 10:12 am

Again, What an Organization believes comes from their statement of doctrine and not the subjective experience of certain individuals.

Because you or some other meets a person who claims to be Oneness and yet does not describe their belief accurately, does not mean that the organization does not believe what their statement of belief states.

It is like saying that Whatever organization Kurt is associated with has the definition of Trinity Kurt has.

A perusal of the loaded questions on the UPC page pertaining to the Trinity shows modalism is thier form of belief:

http://www.upci.org/doctrine/60Questions.asp

Kurt has said: "I believe trinity but not the trinity ..."

If you do not believe the Trinity, you do not believe in the God of the Bible but a product of your own ignorant imagination.

Postby **Pastor Gary** » May 27th, 2009, 10:37 am

Welcome home, Gerald!

EagerBeaver · Postby **EagerBeaver** » May 27th, 2009, 11:20 am

Pastor Gary wrote:Welcome home, Gerald!

Hey it took me to bring him back :lol:

Poimen · Postby **Poimen** » May 27th, 2009, 1:16 pm

Gerald Creasy wrote:Kurt has said: "I believe trinity but not the trinity ..."

If you do not believe the Trinity, you do not believe in the God of the Bible but a product of your own ignorant imagination.

Gerald, brother, you go to far here. Do you really believe that IF one cannot verbalize nor mentally assent to the complicity involved in understanding the doctrine of the Trinity, though affirming the God of the Bible to be the only true God, and Jesus His son, then they do not believe in the God of the Bible? That is tantamount to saying they are not saved.

Poimen · Postby **Poimen** » May 27th, 2009, 1:24 pm

kurt73 wrote:Exactly Pastor Bill, all the UPC people I know (which is a lot) believe what we believe but refuse to use the word trinity.

I believe that a large part of the gap between Oneness and Trinitarian Christians is semantics. However, there are some core fundamental differences as well. But mostly, it's a hang up on semantics (IMHO).

That being said, and for clarification...

You mean the Oneness Christians you know actually believe and have verbalized that God is now, always has been, and always will be, one unique being consisting of three distinct persons who are and equally share in divinity?

Gerald Creasy · Postby **Gerald Creasy** » May 27th, 2009, 1:30 pm

Poimen wrote:
Gerald Creasy wrote:Kurt has said: "I believe trinity but not the trinity ..."

If you do not believe the Trinity, you do not believe in the God of the Bible but a product of your own ignorant imagination.

Gerald, brother, you go to far here. Do you really believe that IF one cannot verbalize nor mentally assent to the complicity involved in understanding the doctrine of the Trinity, though affirming the God of the Bible to be the only true God, and Jesus His son, then they do not believe in the God of the Bible? That is tantamount to saying they are not saved.

Who can comprehend that one is three and three is one??

Comprehension is not the issue. The issue is refusing to believe what the Bible has stated.

If you do not believe God as presented in the Bible and augment him with an imagination you can grasp, how does the god of your imagination save you?

I don't care how much you shout, babble or emotionally effuse if you REFUSE to believe God is as the Bible describes him there is a fundamental problem.

To say "I believe the trinity but not the trinity" is THE EXACT SAME THING as saying "I believe the Bible but not the Bible"

As I have said in many post over several years ONLY in Pentecostalism do you have to defend the FUNDAMENTAL basics upon which Christianity is based. In Pentecostalism God can be a God of modes, a man, equal to you and me, or even at times NOT EVEN GOD AT ALL. And its ALL OKAy: they name Jesus, are friendly people and my grandmothers second cousins neices' next door neighbor got healed when they were prayed for by one of the proponents.

TC · Postby TC » May 27th, 2009, 3:01 pm

I am not going to say anything about what they do or do not believe. I don't really care one way or the other.

When I was taking pics full time, I met so many people in so many different churches. And I have to admit that for the most part the UPC Churches I have been in have been the best when it comes to showing Christ like Love.

One very important time in my life, a man came up to me at a restaurant and said, I know you don't know me or anything about me, but I feel led of the Lord to pray for you and I want to know if that would be alright. I said yes. He prayed for me right on the spot and then thanked me and went back to his seat. He did not say I am a pastor come to my church or do you go to church. He just thanked me and left.

I later found out he just moved to the Ville and was given my number by a pastor in Ohio, told to contact me that he thought we could be good friends. I found this out a few weeks later when he called.

His prayer was something I needed at that moment and did not even know it till a few hours later.

They are not a cult, they do not believe in the exact same thing I do but they believe the only way to heaven is thru Christ.

Why do we always want to look at differences instead of finding common ground and Love like Christ loved.

kurt73 · Postby **kurt73** » May 27th, 2009, 4:21 pm

Poimen wrote:
kurt73 wrote:Exactly Pastor Bill, all the UPC people I know (which is a lot) believe what we believe but refuse to use the word trinity.
That being said, and for clarification...

You mean the Oneness Christians you know actually believe and have verbalized that God is now, always has been, and always will be, one unique being consisting of three distinct persons who are and equally share in divinity?

Correct, they believe Jesus is the name above all Names and is one of the Names of God. How can they believe in Jesus but yet believe you need to get the Holy Ghost? So they believe in the Holy Ghost. kinda takes the oneness and turns it into a twoness :lol:

UPC just get hung up on the word trinity because of the various definition people have attach to it, just like oneness. Trinity do not believe in three gods but there is some trinity churches that do.

kurt73 · Postby **kurt73** » May 27th, 2009, 4:30 pm

Gerald Creasy wrote:Kurt has said: "I believe trinity but not the trinity ..."

If you do not believe the Trinity, you do not believe in the God of the Bible but a product of your own ignorant imagination.

You did not qoute my whole sentence, you just stated what you wanted to try to prove your point. I said "I believe trinity but not the trinity I have read of or heard believing in three seperate gods." which means totally different then what you are trying to insinuate. If you are going to qoute me then quote it all!

Gerald Creasy · Postby **Gerald Creasy** » May 27th, 2009, 9:02 pm

kurt73 wrote:
Gerald Creasy wrote:Kurt has said: "I believe trinity but not the trinity ..."

If you do not believe the Trinity, you do not believe in the God of the Bible but a product of your own ignorant imagination.

You did not qoute my whole sentence, you just stated what you wanted to try to prove your point. I said "I believe trinity but not the trinity I have read of or heard believing in three seperate gods." which means totally different then what you are trying to insinuate. If you are going to qoute me then quote it all!

My apologies.

If you have heard someone describe the Trinity as three seperate Gods you have found someone utterly ignorant. That is not nor has it ever been The Trinity.

In fact it is SO MUCh outside of the definition of Trinity that you shouldnt even have to worry about clarifying with an "I believe the Trinity but...."

sweetpea · Postby **sweetpea** » May 27th, 2009, 9:21 pm

My fathers mother was oneness and they did have very different beliefs;They said you were not saved until you spoke in tongues,I went to Church with my grand mother several times and they were supposed to be dancing in The Spirit,but they would all be in a circle and would all be dancing the same way,this was the children.I had never seen that in COGOP,also,everything was always addressed to Jesus and The Father and Holy Ghost was never mentioned.I would not attempt to say who is or or isn't a christian but Oneness members usually do not associate with other churches the women aren't allowed to preach My best friend was raised in the Oneness or Jesus Only church. She is now Baptist and believes in The Farther,Son,and Holy Ghost.The women are not allowed to wear pants,they can wear jewelry except no ear rings and they are not supposed to wear any make up.She was not allowed to ever attend any sports events and just lots of other things I believe in the Trinity and I know you can be a christian without speaking in tongues,
I was raised in COGOP and am now COG,I see very little difference in the two,but I think that the Oneness or Jesus only are way off from what other Holiness or Pentecostal people preach and teach.I have always understood The Trinity reading in John.
I have had lots of people say that Jesus Was not God,they actually believe there is 3 different people,a Catholic lady and myself explain it at the beauty shop the same way There is 1 God,3 God heads,The Father,The Son and The Holy Ghost.

Also,you do not join the church,if you attend 2 or 3 times you are their member and they will write you letters asking that you pay your tithes.

Gerald I'm glad you're back.

Jude 2