Strange coincidence or Ordered steps?

[scooter]

. That God ultimately willed it does not make Him responsible for our choices! .

Responses: Now that is funny.

Use some uncommon sense here.

You can't orchestrate a crime and then step back from responsibility in the real world.

[dolfan]

. That God ultimately willed it does not make Him responsible for our choices! .

Responses: Now that is funny.

Use some uncommon sense here.

You can't orchestrate a crime and then step back from responsibility in the real world.

That's true.

[Gerald Creasy]

You can't orchestrate a crime and then step back from responsibility in the real world.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.


I know we are stretching it being that the arguement is "seems to me" and "common sense" against what the BIBLE actually says, so I seriously doubt I'll get an answer that does anything but totally strip the above scripture of any meaning whatsoever.

But I have to ask: How can God mean something for Good if he had no hand in it?

How can the crime of crucifying an innocent man be planned from the foundation of the world, yet not be possible in the real world?

[dolfan]

You can't orchestrate a crime and then step back from responsibility in the real world.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.


I know we are stretching it being that the arguement is "seems to me" and "common sense" against what the BIBLE actually says, so I seriously doubt I'll get an answer that does anything but totally strip the above scripture of any meaning whatsoever.

But I have to ask: How can God mean something for Good if he had no hand in it?

How can the crime of crucifying an innocent man be planned from the foundation of the world, yet not be possible in the real world?

Maybe I'm missing Scooter's point somehow. I'm getting confused. Every good and perfect gift is from God. That's bible. Stir up the gift that is within you. That's bible. We're all to use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God’s grace in its various forms. Also bible. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding, Daniel said. So, He teaches us, all of us, through general revelation at the very, very least, not to say anything of the greater and more specific and particular revelations of Himself and His relationship to His creation, and about our relationship to the rest of His creation.

The bible says, "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! ... For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:33,36). God knows it all, and what we know, we wouldn't know but for Him. But, He doesn't tell us all He knows. Much of what is true is unsearchable and past finding out. There's a ceiling on revelation.

That ceiling is the dividing line we are parsing over here about what God knows and what we know and culpability for knowing or not knowing, etc.

You and I live in a physical world surrounded by and made up of matter. We're part of the stuff. Much of what lies beyond what we perceive, through all the means of perception including the vast technology and learning we have, is never knowable here. Maybe not even "there". But, what we do have is ability to know, to learn, to use, to search and find and to do. All that is us. We get to do that. God made it so.

There's no point where we can abandon the responsibility or liability or consequence of what we do or why we do what we do and say of it, "Well, God knew, therefore that's on Him and not me." His knowledge of it, His ordaining it even, does not make Him liable for it and me not liable for it. Not going to work. It is not unjust for me to be liable for what I do, even if the ultimate result is beyond my control. I'm liable for what I do, I face the consequences here and hereafter, whatever they may be. I'm not justified in any measure because God was ultimately sovereign over it, knew about it, and even ordained that it be so. Nor is He somehow made guilty of my sin.

But, hey, look even if you don't blame God for it, or if you want to believe that God didn't ordain it or whatever because it wrecks what you can believe about free will and all that ..... then believe that way. We're not going to cajole each other into accepting contrary positions. But, don't lay off of ourselves the justice of the consequences, earthly or eternally, for what we do. That's what's going on with regard to this thing with the people in New Mexico. That justice, no matter what we think of God's ordaining, knowing, etc., is still undeniably and indisputably His to mete out according to the Word that He has spoken and for which we're accountable to live by it. And, there's no way, no argument from reason, no argument from the Bible, that what these people chose to do during the pregnancy and up to the moment that baby died and thereafter is in any way alright or just someone exercising faith. There's plenty of reason to conclude that what they did was superstitious. And, there's a dead baby for whom no one really seems to willing to place the emphatic point of importance. I'm just completely flummoxed by that.

[oletimer]

Brian

oletimer wrote:
Quote:

Brian posted:

He is too darn big!

??????????????

I am not sure I get your confusion. I was just messing around. Ya know, stop putting God in a box cause He is too big. God isn't confined to our small pre-conceived notions. It was my feeble attempt at being funny. I guess I failed. LOL

_________________

1Ti 4:12
Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

The word that you used tho not consistered bad by world standers, is quite offencsive to many church people especially when used by church people.

Many just don't realize it.

[Brian]

I hope this does not put us at odds with one another, but if calling for accountability from a brother who has offended does that then I will apologize to you for it now.

God bless...
DJ

Absolutely not my friend! Accountability is a good thing. I have been made to be accountable for my words on more than one occasion. Hopefully I have learned from it, sometimes not, but thank God He has been patient with me and placed Godly men and women in my path to help guide me according to His will. But no, you and I are not at odds my friend.

[Brian]

The word that you used tho not consistered bad by world standers, is quite offencsive to many church people especially when used by church people.

Many just don't realize it.

Sorry about that oletimer, I admit that I am a probably a little more loose with my words than many but I certainly would never purposefully want to offend a brother or sister with a slip of my tongue. Please forgive my offense.

God bless