Wisdom for today

[RamboPreacher]

awesome. I actually just ordered How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth. I have a couple commentary works of Brueggemann. after doing some studies of Augustin (Hippo), and then looking back at Brueggemann writing, there is some common thematic views, or perhaps some Augustinian influence. good stuff. May have to pick that one up.

[Pastor Gary]

awesome. I actually just ordered How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth. I have a couple commentary works of Brueggemann. after doing some studies of Augustin (Hippo), and then looking back at Brueggemann writing, there is some common thematic views, or perhaps some Augustinian influence. good stuff. May have to pick that one up.

Honestly, of the list posted, Brueggemann is the most liberal, and has even been branded a heretic by some, so I don't broadly recommend him, but cited him just to illustrate that my point was a broadly held, generally accepted view.

[paul]

awesome. I actually just ordered How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth. I have a couple commentary works of Brueggemann. after doing some studies of Augustin (Hippo), and then looking back at Brueggemann writing, there is some common thematic views, or perhaps some Augustinian influence. good stuff. May have to pick that one up.

RamboPreacher, there is a good companion book by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart: " How to read the bible book by book " Both books are standard study tools for our students.

[Full Quiver]

Paul and Gary, do you guys embrace and believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost as most Pentecostals do?

If so, do these authors that you suggested believe the same?

[Pastor Gary]

Paul and Gary, do you guys embrace and believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost as most Pentecostals do?

If so, do these authors that you suggested believe the same?

I am not sure there is any such thing as "most Pentecostals." But if you mean do I believe in the present and active work of the Holy Spirit who can indwell believers and empower them... and do I believe the Spirit speaks through indwelled believers (tongues), etc.?

Yes. I am not sure why you ask.

I read and study books by Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Catholics, Baptists... and not all agree with me/I don't agree with them. Gordon Fee, one of those cited is an Assembly of God minister with multiple PhD.s and is a highly respected Pentecostal scholar.

[paul]

Paul and Gary, do you guys embrace and believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost as most Pentecostals do?

If so, do these authors that you suggested believe the same?

I am not sure there is any such thing as "most Pentecostals." But if you mean do I believe in the present and active work of the Holy Spirit who can indwell believers and empower them... and do I believe the Spirit speaks through indwelled believers (tongues), etc.?

Yes. I am not sure why you ask.

I read and study books by Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Catholics, Baptists... and not all agree with me/I don't agree with them. Gordon Fee, one of those cited is an Assembly of God minister with multiple PhD.s and is a highly respected Pentecostal scholar.

I echo Pastor Gary's statement. Many of the book I have and have read are early 1900's especially in the area of the Doctrine of God, Redemption, The Teachings of Jesus. Most are written by evangelical's.

I was raised COGOP. Graduated from a Baptist Bible College, did my CPE training under the direction of Perkins School of Theology ( SMU ) Methodist, Did graduate work at a Baptist Seminary. So as Pastor well said

and not all agree with me/I don't agree with them

[RamboPreacher]

awesome. I actually just ordered How to Read the Bible for All It's Worth. I have a couple commentary works of Brueggemann. after doing some studies of Augustin (Hippo), and then looking back at Brueggemann writing, there is some common thematic views, or perhaps some Augustinian influence. good stuff. May have to pick that one up.

Honestly, of the list posted, Brueggemann is the most liberal, and has even been branded a heretic by some, so I don't broadly recommend him, but cited him just to illustrate that my point was a broadly held, generally accepted view.

of course could be said of most (in one way or another - we are talking about interpretation - hehehehehe). my point was about interpretation of scripture and Augustin's view (and something that Brueggemann seems to espouse) that scripture can be relative (liberal view, but can have some very interesting understanding). meaning that there should always be many interpretations, and not only a very specific dogmatic singularity.

[Full Quiver]

Rambo, are you implying that God has more than one way when He speaks (you said Scripture is relative)?


PG and Paul, If you believe in the indwelling of the Spirit like I think you do and the authors do not then in my opinion there is a dramatic stumbling block between you and they. You believe the Spirit will lead and guide you into truth and they have not yet received the truth of His indwelling and power for service. However you lean towards them for truth when it is the Spirit that is within you that is your guide. Am I saying they cannot possess truth? Absolutely not because all can learn and be taught but if they deny a very simple yet important aspect of the Christian faith then I am very skeptical especially if they profess to be knowing.

[RamboPreacher]

Rambo, are you implying that God has more than one way when He speaks (you said Scripture is relative)?


PG and Paul, If you believe in the indwelling of the Spirit like I think you do and the authors do not then in my opinion there is a dramatic stumbling block between you and they. You believe the Spirit will lead and guide you into truth and they have not yet received the truth of His indwelling and power for service. However you lean towards them for truth when it is the Spirit that is within you that is your guide. Am I saying they cannot possess truth? Absolutely not because all can learn and be taught but if they deny a very simple yet important aspect of the Christian faith then I am very skeptical especially if they profess to be knowing.

FQ - I am merely expressing the understanding of a particular historical persons point of view, and a modern-day author's agreement. I never said one way or another that I espoused that view.

comment in general about education, and learning; since it came up here (not directed to FQ): We just had our regional convention this weekend and the new overseer is working to cast his vision and desire to provide more resources for the ministry. Be it LDI, CBL, Gordon Conwell, or TC. Part of this will be when he has his one on one discussions with the ministry and pastors, they are going to be required to provide him an account of what they are doing to pursue higher education.

Of course the issue came up that some believe that they can only be taught by the Holy Spirit and that there are no certificates or diploma's in learning from God directly. The The overseer was merely talking about having some accountability and progress tracking in that pursuit of education, not necessarily specifying that degrees and certificates were being required.

it seemed to me that most people that had any comment that wasn't in support of the paradigm were merely trying to justify that they don't need to pursue any education, and as alluded, they can only be taught by God. If that is truly the case, then in a reference of accountability (asking for certificates or sign-off's of completion, etc) - if God is truly teaching them, then it will show in their lives and ministry reporting monthly (not a continual 0-saved, 0-sanctified, 0-HG baptism, month after month, after month after month after year, after year, after year)

I believe we CAN learn from authors, experts, and scholars (that are not necessarily of the same exact belief-sets, that we are). i.e. - Yes, Bart Ehrman has lost his Christianity to education; but there is much applicable and Biblical information that can be learned from him in the area of New Testament understandings. It does lack in relationship, but to throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak - is way to conservative, in my opinion.

[paul]

Rambo, are you implying that God has more than one way when He speaks (you said Scripture is relative)?


PG and Paul, If you believe in the indwelling of the Spirit like I think you do and the authors do not then in my opinion there is a dramatic stumbling block between you and they. You believe the Spirit will lead and guide you into truth and they have not yet received the truth of His indwelling and power for service. However you lean towards them for truth when it is the Spirit that is within you that is your guide. Am I saying they cannot possess truth? Absolutely not because all can learn and be taught but if they deny a very simple yet important aspect of the Christian faith then I am very skeptical especially if they profess to be knowing.

Good question FQ, my grandson and I have been spending a great deal of time in this area. god has done an incrediable work in his life, for the past year he has imersed himself in the word. I talked to him about doing some Bible School material. Grandpa...the scriptures says the Holy Spirit is my teacher.

I am in full agreement that the Holy Spirit is our teacher in that it is He and He alone that can give us divine revelation. Man and his writtings can give us great insight, we can learn by trial and error of many great men and women of God. We can also learn from revelation that they have received from the Holy Spirit as well.

Some times we in pentecost or the charismatic movement have a tendiency to think that all revelation came after Azusa Street. Many men who may not have spoken in tongues or operated in miracles per say, were not void of understanding the power and purpose of the Holy Spirit.

I have a book that many here might be familiar with. I think it is one of the best handbooks on theology. I say handbook because it is not lengthy, nor completely given to hard criticisum. " Lectures in Systematic Theology" by Thiessen. While the author and I would differ very much in the area of cesation of the gifts, his insight in the area of Sanctification helped me greatly come to an understanding that evaded me for years, yet did not change my view of holiness or Holiness.

A general rule goes back to what Pastor Gary has mentioned, that we bring many preconceived, pre packaged concepts and beliefs to the table. Generally any argument against what those are only tend to reinforce what we do believe. But we learn, we see it from a different point of view.
and in many cases causes us to dig deeper and forces us to truly know and understand better what we do believe.

[paul]

Rambo, are you implying that God has more than one way when He speaks (you said Scripture is relative)?


PG and Paul, If you believe in the indwelling of the Spirit like I think you do and the authors do not then in my opinion there is a dramatic stumbling block between you and they. You believe the Spirit will lead and guide you into truth and they have not yet received the truth of His indwelling and power for service. However you lean towards them for truth when it is the Spirit that is within you that is your guide. Am I saying they cannot possess truth? Absolutely not because all can learn and be taught but if they deny a very simple yet important aspect of the Christian faith then I am very skeptical especially if they profess to be knowing.

Good question FQ, my grandson and I have been spending a great deal of time in this area. God has done an incrediable work in his life, for the past year he has imersed himself in the word. I talked to him about doing some Bible School material. Grandpa...the scriptures says the Holy Spirit is my teacher.

I am in full agreement that the Holy Spirit is our teacher in that it is He and He alone that can give us divine revelation. Man and his writtings can give us great insight, we can learn by trial and error of many great men and women of God. We can also learn from revelation that they have received from the Holy Spirit as well.

Some times we in pentecost or the charismatic movement have a tendiency to think that all revelation came after Azusa Street. Many men who may not have spoken in tongues or operated in miracles per say, were not void of understanding the power and purpose of the Holy Spirit.

I have a book that many here might be familiar with. I think it is one of the best handbooks on theology. I say handbook because it is not lengthy, nor completely given to hard criticisum. " Lectures in Systematic Theology" by Thiessen. While the author and I would differ very much in the area of cesation of the gifts, his insight in the area of Sanctification helped me greatly come to an understanding that evaded me for years, yet did not change my view of holiness or Holiness.

A general rule goes back to what Pastor Gary has mentioned, that we bring many preconceived, pre packaged concepts and beliefs to the table. Generally any argument against what those are only tend to reinforce what we do believe. But we learn, we see it from a different point of view.
and in many cases causes us to dig deeper and forces us to truly know and understand better what we do believe.

[oletimer]

I have all ways studied other denominations believeth so to know were I stood with the one that I'm with. So far I have not had a problem with that theory. Some denominations I have lost repect for and others I've gain respect even though I disagree with them either way.

Sometimes we forget that God does the saving and we are expected to disciple the lambs (teach) in the ways of the Lord.

Years ago when I was doing floor covering for a living, I had been doing it for serveral years and one day while I was working on a floor, this old man that I was working for was watching me, in a little bit he ask if I had ever thought about doing the job a different way that he decribed. He had never done floor covering, but I was wise enought to listen to him. The next time that I had a job like that I tried it his way, it worked better.

The reason that I mention this is that you can learn from anybody if you are willing to listen. I didn't have to take his advise, but it made the next job easiler.

I could have called him a liar and an idoit for not seeing it my way. Most likly would have gotten me fired and I would not have learned a better way of doing that job.