question for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dawgs10]

why does so many christians believe in eternal salvation when in Hebrews 10:28 clearly states that if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[RamboPreacher]

in defense of the TULIP systematic approach, there are many references the will seem to counter a particular understanding/interpretation of a given scripture, in and of itself. the approach is to have a couple of scriptures, and even better is to have 3 or more for your argumentation.
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm
as example.
(and in case someone thinks that how I personally believe, if you really do think that, I can't stop you, but perhaps you might want to read some of my other posts in the doctrine forum )

[RaceRunner]

why does so many christians believe in eternal salvation when in Hebrews 10:28 clearly states that if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

I agree. Also, how can the eternal salvationists (OSAS) explain Revelations 2 & 3?

To the seven Churches....to christians within them (and a few named non-christians also)...the words are used:....remember from whence thou art fallen, repent, do the first works, hold fast, overcome, endure and keep until the end....and in return, He won't remove the candlestick...He won't blot out names out of the Book of Life.


Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

There are more scriptures like those...but the crowning scripture:

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


It seems that....Right NOW...on this earth....we are saved by Grace.....and if we endure to the very end and overcome, then we will be truly SAVED (rescued from this wicked world) when those "pearly gates shut behind us".

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[dawgs10]

i hope this does not get moved. i want this question out here for anyone to see. i would like scripture from both veiws.

[dawgs10]

hebrews 10 goes on to say in verse 29 of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, and unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[Susie Hamilton]

When buying an item that had a lifetime guarantee, I bought the guarantee. It was offered. I had the option of buying or not buying. Once I had the lifetime gurantee, no matter what happened I was covered for the lifetime. If I had chosen not to buy it, it would not be offered again.
I think that is like when we are first convicted of our sins. If we chose to accept salvation we are covered and any sins thereafter can be forgiven. If not accepted, we have no guarantee. Just my thots.

[RaceRunner]

Rom 3:23 -25
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[dawgs10]

Rom 3:23 -25
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

THAT ARE PAST!!! seems to be a trend!!

[dawgs10]

When buying an item that had a lifetime guarantee, I bought the guarantee. It was offered. I had the option of buying or not buying. Once I had the lifetime gurantee, no matter what happened I was covered for the lifetime. If I had chosen not to buy it, it would not be offered again.
I think that is like when we are first convicted of our sins. If we chose to accept salvation we are covered and any sins thereafter can be forgiven. If not accepted, we have no guarantee. Just my thots.

can be forgiven or are forgiven?

[justsam]

Read "Life in the Son" by Robert Shank if you really want a good understanding of this topic. Here is an excerpt from the editorial review:

"Seldom is a book published that reflects such bold independence of thought, such freedom from the fetters of tradition, and such complete objectivity in the study of the Scriptures. It is a book to be reckoned with by all serious students of the Bible."

from the Introduction by Dr. William W. Adams of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

Internationally known among Bible scholars for his significant books in the field of biblical theology, Dr. Robert Shank here offers a penetrating study of all the pertinent New Testament Scriptures on the doctrine of perseverance. In doing so, he calls into question the popular doctrine of "eternal [unconditional] security."

Are the proof passages used to support eternal security possibly misconstrued? Dr. Shank convincingly argues that the question confronting us is not, Is the believer secure? but rather, What does it mean to be a believer? If apostasy is an actual peril for every Christian, the Scriptural warning passages must be frankly accepted rather than interpreted into irrelevance or circumvented by theological hypothesis.

A critical re-examination of one of the historical tenets of theology

[dawgs10]

still would like bible one way or the other!!

[RaceRunner]

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;


2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

[RaceRunner]

Col 1:22-23
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[Brian]

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

Clearly we are not suppose to sin after we have received such a great gift as salvation but like the verse says, "if any man sin"... obviously we are not immediately cast aside like yesterdays news, we are children of the Most High God!! If my child commits an act of rebellion against me am I not still His father? Is he not still my son? Of course there will be correction and possibly castisement but that only shows that I love him and want to mold him and help him along his path.
It isn't an acceptance of his/our behaviour, but our path is a journey, a walk with our Lord. To think that at the drop of a hat He will cast His children aside is a little short sighted imo.

Acts 2:47 is a tricky verse for me to fully grasp. The KJV says "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."
And several others like the NIV, ERV, ASV ect. ect. say "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were being saved.

One would imply a future tense of "should be" and the other a present day/past tense of "were being".

For me, I believe salvation is obtained by grace through faith and it is NOT of myself. I couldn't do anything to save myself (apart from acceptance) and I can't do anything to retain my salvation. Of course we are instructed to repent of our sins, that's a given. But the problem is what happens at the point of "willful sin". Some believe the Holy Spirit will not dwell in an unclean temple and they impose that on this very type of situation when someone willfully sins then the Holy Spirit just pops out of you and when you repent he pops back in. Bologna!! The Holy Spirit isn't a jumping jack pop in pop out!
If someone sins then I believe the Lord, through the Holy Spirit will convict our hearts and guide us to repentance and Jesus is loving and just and advocates with the Father on our behalf. He doesn't leave us, HE LOVES and DIED for us!

While it may be possible for someone to lose salvation from out right rebellion and rejection of the Lord, I don't think it's that easy to get away from God. How many of us have left church or slacked off in our prayers and devotion and the Lord is like a 1000 ton weight on our heart and we can't escape His wooing? I know for me, when I have rebelled the Lord has been relentless in His pursuit of my heart!! thank God!!

[RaceRunner]

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


Mat 7:16-23
(16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Jas 5:19,20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


1Co 9:24-27
(24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
(25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
(26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1Jn 3:3-8 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
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