Guilty verdict

[Poimen]

Sis. Rachel,

That might actually have some application IF financial provision were available through faith without working.
However, nothing in the sacrificial offering of Christ (that I am aware of) made income a provision of the grace of God receivable by faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

[Poimen]

Those men were honoring God and HARMED no one in the process. This is ludicrous and I'm glad you keep running your mouth for all Jude 2 to see.

It's no less than I did for you and Wendy when you practiced your faith so, despite several folks here being alarmed by it, disagreeing with it, and some even speaking as ungraciously to and about you all for it.

[Full Quiver]

Rachel has a valid point in that God said he houses and feeds the birds of the air and we are to take no thought for our own life/care, etc.

Chris, if you are implying things to me, about me, etc. then grow a spine and speak directly to me. I for one an sick of your charades. Maybe I should place you atop a 6' ladder surrounded by snakes and see how long you last.

[paul]

Sis. Rachel,

That might actually have some application IF financial provision were available through faith without working.
However, nothing in the sacrificial offering of Christ (that I am aware of) made income a provision of the grace of God receivable by faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

Gee....I wonder what I have been doing for the past 39 years of ministry....?

Our entire ministry is one of walking by faith and believing God for daily provisions..both in health and in finances. After all because of His death on the cross and His ascenson He left the Holy Spirit that drew a young man to the cross by the name of Saul, later to become paul who under the influence of that same Spirit told me that God would supply all my needs according to His riches in Glory.

Also I am told by my Lord, that if I seek first His kingdom and its righteousness, all these things whould be added unto me.

When my wife and I started this ministry, we had no support, no denominational backing, no contacts overseas. We daily prayed in the provisions, not only for ourselves but for the ministry as well.

I could spend hours telling you stories of our needing thousands to meet budgets and my wife and I praying for the need...within a few days receiving checks for more than the needed amount. Stories orf going to a meeting and a stranger walking up to me and telling me God placed our ministry on his heart....then handing me a check for $10,000.

When we bought our home we were in need of all the appliances, we had been renting an apartment. A lady had come to visit us..Within a few weeks she had purchased new top of the line, dishwasher, stove, refrigerator. When our car broke down...We were given a new Dodge Grand Caravan, debt free. Later my wife was given a really nice small pick up truck.

About a month ago I got my watch out of the shop not an expensive one at all but I liked it. The next day I dropped it and it totally stopped runing. That week a person came to me and said he felt the Lord prompting him to give me a watch. I refused at first and he insisted and did not want to be disobedient to what he felt the Lord telling him to do.
I received the watch..He gave me the receipt the warrenty. It is a Baume/Mercier the real thing and not a knock off. Receipt purchase price was $2,100. I have never paid more than $80 for a watch in my life.

Last week someone gave my wife a beautiful Large framed authinic/certified Thomas Kincade Panting. They said they just wanted to bless her.

These things we never prayed for....It could have been a timex and I would have been happy. As I said I could go on for hours.

God does meet our provisional needs, but like most things, it is a walk of faith.

[EagerBeaver]

They are in good company.

Daniel was found guilty and put in the Lion's den.
The three Hebrew boys were found guilty and thrown in the fiery furnace.
Paul was found guilty and had his head removed.
Peter was found guilty and crucified upside down.
Our Lord, was found guiltless, and crucified anyhow.

May God grant them great grace and peace during their hour of tribulation.

Chris, don't you be ashamed for 1 second on your position.
Chris (Brewer) knows, or should well know that you are not against medical care. Come on guys where is your memory!!! I don't follow Jude2 as much as he does and I know for a FACT I have read that you have said you would call the doctor on several cases and that you don't oppose medical care. Chris Brewer, dude, please stop acting like our brother is in support of crazy no doctor types. He is not!

But I will tell you this, if my son who is SEVERLY DISABLED was to stop breathing and become unresponsive my wife, who is a Registered Nurse would try life saving techniques and we would PRAY PRAY PRAY!! Of course we would call 911 but that isn't to say that prayer should take a back seat to medicine and the doctors!! Where has the faith of our christian community gone?? Just because we believe that God has blessed the world with intellegent doctors DOES NOT mean He has stopped healing through the power of prayer.
We all live in this world of uncertainty. None of us know at what precise moment that our situation may take a turn for the worse and medical care may be need to be brought in to interven. At what precise second do you (eagerbeaver) feel is the proper time to ring 911? Nine seconds after a situation starts? Seven seconds? 15? A minute? three?
From what PG said they called 911 when the girl stopped breathing. How in the world were they to know the severety of there daughter and at what presice second they should have called and stopped praying? THEY DIDNT and neither do you.

Man I am sorry this seems so blistering but I am just fed up with people calling good decent God fearing christians MURDERERS!!! Come ON MAN! We are slowly tearing the church apart from the inside out because we want the systems of the world to "lock up and throw away the keys" of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ!!!

@Brian --

Easy. Pray while you're calling 911, and call it as soon as you possibly can.

Of course, if the person in a medical situation declines medical care, then you don't give it to them. But if someone is helpless and exhibiting signs before my very eyes of a life and death situation, you had better believe I'm pulling out my iPhone and dialing 911.

Getting external help for medical care is not a sign of weakness in one's faith. Like I said it's using the gift God has blessed us with, and in my opinion, we're wrong to not utilize that gift if it's there.

With this couple, if they would have taken their kid to a doctor in the first place they would have found out exactly what ailed her all throughout her young life. Instead she was left to suffer, and all the while her parents were given a clear NO answer on her healing from the Lord.

I am merely asking Poimen to clarify his position. I think his statement was rather offensive in the way that it seems to glorify the parents' harm of their child by equating what they did with that of the Biblical prophets. Give me a break!

Be fed up with me and those who agree with me all you want, it doesn't change the fact the parents were negligent and let their child die before their eyes.

[one love]

Not to take sides on this issue, but has anyone even addressed the issue of ridiculous healthcare costs? My family doesn't have health insurance, thus we find ourselves trusting God to keep us from undesirable circumstances.

We can point fingers all day concerning those who are ridiculous for refraining from the emergency room, but isn't it just as ridiculous for a hospital to charge $50 or more for a $1 pair of latex gloves, etc? To me, this is the real joke. Furthermore, some physicians today are only in the profession for the paycheck, and true patient care is lacking . How does one know which ones to trust?

Nobody -- NO-body -- in America is ever turned away from an ER for lack of finances or lack of medical insurance. BY FEDERAL LAW they must be treated.

To my knowledge this is correct in all the states!

[one love]

i think the most troubling thing is the outright harshness that "fellow" brothers and sisters in Christ show each other in this thread. No matter how you feel about medical care we should never bring some of these remarks to one another.

I think poimen was saying that he defends ones right to fully trust in God and that the Government should not be able to MAKE them do otherwise. Brian made a good point as well. Poimen never stated he is against medical care.

I use medical care, if someone else does not I respect there choice. It could be different when effecting someone else who can not make a decision for them self, however are we really wanting the Government to step in the lives of our faith? Where will that stop? What if they say you have to teach them evolution until they are able to be a adult etc.

Paul I ask are you telling Rachel that her husband should quit his job? He is not a minister. Healing is in the atonement. Yes I believe God can bless us all financially but I do not read anywhere in the bible that we should not work at all and just hope that money appears. Jesus worked, as did Paul. From the the fall, man had to work the field to survive.

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all his Righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you"

Hopefully none of us are saying this verse is claiming that we need not to work or that this is a equal analogy, it simply is not.

So yes we are to seek God first and he will take care of the rest, that does not mean we do not need to work for it. Ministers are working , they are not jobless. They labor as well.

If we are in a situation that we have no food yes God can feed us. He blessed Israel with Manna from heaven. He fed Elijah from the ravens but he was also a prophet "WORKING" not just sitting at home saying I am believing God to bring me a check. So I understand the point Rachel and it makes sense but I do not think it is applicable.

My son would be taken to the Emergency room and I would be praying the whole way. i do not feel that is a lack of faith at all. I believe God has (as Eager said) blessed them with the knowledge to help people.

I wonder if they will apply this to the American Indian culture? Will this apply to Jehovah witness's that refuse blood transfusions because of there faith. I want the Government out of our spiritual lives as much as possible. Would I have called if I was there? YES some would just have to be mad at me , but I do fear to much of the Government interfering in our lives, when will it stop? Should they really get 25 years in prison for trusting God? Yes I think they should have went to the E.R. but 25 years in prison?????? WOW
My .02 cents

[n2jesus]

Faith in God for healing and going to the doctor is 2 different subjects...I have done both at the same time...I have trusted God for all of my Christian walk...There have been times I was completely healed by the hand of God, there have been times I received help from a doctor by medicine, surgery, shots, etc...I have no problem with an adult's ability to decide what they want to do with their personal faith issues...Unless there is bible to back what they believe that applies to all of us, keep it to yourself...However, for a parent to watch their child suffer who has no idea how much they suffer, what is wrong and to watch that child die without exhausting all means to help that innocent child who is looking to you as an example of what Christ's love is able to provide, then it is beyond anything I will ever be able to understand...And to think others are supposed to stand by and watch too is unbelievable...I have been and will continue to be an advocate for God's healing...Jesus made dirt/spittle to place on a man's eyes, he could have just spoken the word, Isaiah said make a clump of figs as a poultice, New Testament instructions to use a little wine for your stomach's sake, Naman was told to dip seven times in the dirty Jordan and one less dip wouldn't have worked...I don't understand why people can't take biblical examples and apply them today...Why did the physician Luke write the book of Acts? Why was he called our beloved physician Luke in Philemon? I don't understand why people think it's all or nothing for either " only healing by God" or "only using doctors"...I was taught by a wise bishop that God can heal with or without medicines...You have no idea how much faith I have, for each man was given a measure, all this judging your lack of faith, you have some hidden sin (again a judgement) kinda like the judgement Job got from his supposed friends is so disheartening...I praise the holy name of Jesus that he knows my name, my heart, my faith, my speech afar off, my uprising, my downsitting and I will leave my life, my families life, my friends life ultimately in God's hands...Because no matter how much I do, God can still heal or not heal with all the help we can find...Let's be merciful to those that suffer, for those that pass when you have done your best are hurting...To think I wouldn't do everything in my power to help my child, your child or anyone's child is something I will never be able to comprehend...I know I have been healed in many ways that had nothing to do with the medical profession, but I also have been blessed to have my life saved by emergency surgery and other life saving knowledge...The doctor I have now took the nurse's hand, my hand and prayed the most anointed, sincere prayer for God to help him with my health issues and I praise God for that....

[chris]

Should Jesus spend 25 years in jail for the death of Lazarus. I mean he did stay two more days where he was after he was told. mabey he should have told them to run him to a doctor?
and why didn't mary take him to a doctor first then go to jesus....
Seems to me she thought the best thing to do in that time of stress and fear was to go to the lord!
Mabey before we start shouting crucify them!! from a blood
thirsty mob, we should pray for this man and woman"mother and dad"
brother and sister in christ!
just my thought

[stevenson]

Nobody -- NO-body -- in America is ever turned away from an ER for lack of finances or lack of medical insurance. BY FEDERAL LAW they must be treated.

Oh yeah! We were turned away and my wife was dieing! We tried taking her to another hospital, she started having convulsions. I pulled into a Hardee's parking lot, the manger called 911 and the ambulance took her to another hospital!

[paul]

Paul I ask are you telling Rachel that her husband should quit his job? He is not a minister. Healing is in the atonement. Yes I believe God can bless us all financially but I do not read anywhere in the bible that we should not work at all and just hope that money appears. Jesus worked, as did Paul. From the the fall, man had to work the field to survive.

Absolutely not...My response is simply to say that IMHO, When Christ died for us, in His death and resurrection salvation was made available, healing was made available and provisions for us was also made available. As the old song says: He supplies my every need......I am not in any way elevating anyones faith above anothers. I believe this with all my heart, God has certinally demenstrated it in my family. I thank God and give Him all the glory.

While I agree that this subject in this thread is difficult, having to deal with the death of a child, I can't begin to imagine what the parents are going through. I believe that in the past I shared that when my wife and I entered the ministry in cogop, we filled out an application that ask if we took medication, and can't remember the exact wording, but to the effect that would we be will to refrain from administering medicine to our children.

It was very difficult. I wrote bro. MAT and shared our heart. For my wife and I we could do it...and did. But for our children we felt we could not make that committment. He was gracious, and mentioned about having to still wear eyeglasses....

Our sons are 42, 40, and 37. We have six grandchildren. To God be glory none of them have been injured, no broken bones, never hospitalized for sickness or disease. We have always prayed for their healing, God has always been there for us. But if they would be at the point of death, they would have been taken to the nearest hospital.

My personal testimony as to God's will for me in relationship to my physical body. Afew years ago I was diagnosed with the all american trio. High Sugar, High Blood Pressure, and high colestrol. Well after all I am in my 60's and that is just the way it is. I could accept it and probably die early.

But I choose to do something about it. I drastically change my eating hapits, more exercise. Total life style change. I have lost 25 lbs. all my numbers are in the normal rage. Medication is fast becoming a thing of the past. I had a choice, to accept my situation and say that it was God will for my life. or change what I could change. I chose the later...I think these parents could have changed a few things and made a difference and it would not have in any way challenged their faith. It certinally would not have rocked God from His.

[Poimen]

Mabe before we start shouting crucify them!! ... we should pray for this man and woman, "mother and dad", brother and sister in Christ!

And that is essentially what I was attempting to say right there.
Thank you for saying it so succinctly.

[Poimen]

i think the most troubling thing is the outright harshness that "fellow" brothers and sisters in Christ show each other in this thread. No matter how you feel about medical care we should never bring some of these remarks to one another.

I think poimen was saying that he defends ones right to fully trust in God and that the Government should not be able to MAKE them do otherwise. Brian made a good point as well. Poimen never stated he is against medical care.

I use medical care, if someone else does not I respect there choice. It could be different when effecting someone else who can not make a decision for them self, however are we really wanting the Government to step in the lives of our faith? Where will that stop? What if they say you have to teach them evolution until they are able to be a adult etc.

Paul I ask are you telling Rachel that her husband should quit his job? He is not a minister. Healing is in the atonement. Yes I believe God can bless us all financially but I do not read anywhere in the bible that we should not work at all and just hope that money appears. Jesus worked, as did Paul. From the the fall, man had to work the field to survive.

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all his Righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you"

Hopefully none of us are saying this verse is claiming that we need not to work or that this is a equal analogy, it simply is not.

So yes we are to seek God first and he will take care of the rest, that does not mean we do not need to work for it. Ministers are working , they are not jobless. They labor as well.

If we are in a situation that we have no food yes God can feed us. He blessed Israel with Manna from heaven. He fed Elijah from the ravens but he was also a prophet "WORKING" not just sitting at home saying I am believing God to bring me a check. So I understand the point Rachel and it makes sense but I do not think it is applicable.

My son would be taken to the Emergency room and I would be praying the whole way. i do not feel that is a lack of faith at all. I believe God has (as Eager said) blessed them with the knowledge to help people.

I wonder if they will apply this to the American Indian culture? Will this apply to Jehovah witness's that refuse blood transfusions because of there faith. I want the Government out of our spiritual lives as much as possible. Would I have called if I was there? YES some would just have to be mad at me , but I do fear to much of the Government interfering in our lives, when will it stop? Should they really get 25 years in prison for trusting God? Yes I think they should have went to the E.R. but 25 years in prison?????? WOW
My .02 cents

How come you seem to understand me so much more easily than others. As typical you have accurately comprehended my intentions and arguments.

[Full Quiver]

chris wrote:

Mabe before we start shouting crucify them!! ... we should pray for this man and woman, "mother and dad", brother and sister in Christ!

How do we know they are Christians? What makes them Christian? The news report? Maybe they are but maybe they aren't?

They do need prayer and I won't argue against such but don't lump them in with the prophets and Apostles.

[Poimen]

Bro. Paul,

I was not denying God's ability or willingness to supply, even supernaturally, for our finances. I was simply trying to say that, unlike salvation, financial provision is not a guaranteed universal benefit of the atonement made available by faith alone.

The historic meaning of the Holiness/Pentecostal belief in "Divine Healing in the Atonement" contends that as freely and readily as forgiveness of sin is available by faith so to, generally speaking, is divine healing. Furthermore, divine healing is understood to be healing provided for and accomplished supernaturally, without the use of medical aid.

Now (and this should answer Chris as well, I hope), I'm not saying I completely agree with that position. I am saying I understand it, and I respect those, who as an act of faith and devotion to God, are living that out to the best of their knowledge and ability. As sad as I may find the loss of life or child, or as misguided as I may feel their sincerity to be, I will not (Lord willing) condemn them for it, nor will I (the Lord willing) lose sight of the need to edify and minister to them as fellow believers and members in Christ.

I was taught from a young age "if you can't help someone, then certainly don't hurt them".

If such belief and practice is misguided and wrong it is matter for Godly counsel and church leadership to deal with -- not the government's. And we should not be looking to take, directly or indirectly, our brothers to law before unbelievers.

Be outraged at the practice itself if you must (and by you I am speaking generically), discuss it's merit or lack thereof, but by all means minister to and about the individuals -- speak of and to them with grace. Consider their own mental battle, anguish, even torture, and how easily, if given to despair, doubt, or grief, they could lose all faith in the Lord.

Let us "weep with those who weep". Let us minister grace and nourishment to fellow members of Christ's body.