Guilty verdict

[Poimen]

How do we know they are Christians? What makes them Christian? The news report? Maybe they are but maybe they aren't?

That seems an awful lot like the guy who asked Jesus "well, who is my neighbor".

[THE RAzEr]

They are in good company.

Daniel was found guilty and put in the Lion's den.
The three Hebrew boys were found guilty and thrown in the fiery furnace.
Paul was found guilty and had his head removed.
Peter was found guilty and crucified upside down.
Our Lord, was found guiltless, and crucified anyhow.

May God grant them great grace and peace during their hour of tribulation.

Chris, don't you be ashamed for 1 second on your position.
Chris (Brewer) knows, or should well know that you are not against medical care. Come on guys where is your memory!!! I don't follow Jude2 as much as he does and I know for a FACT I have read that you have said you would call the doctor on several cases and that you don't oppose medical care. Chris Brewer, dude, please stop acting like our brother is in support of crazy no doctor types. He is not!

But I will tell you this, if my son who is SEVERLY DISABLED was to stop breathing and become unresponsive my wife, who is a Registered Nurse would try life saving techniques and we would PRAY PRAY PRAY!! Of course we would call 911 but that isn't to say that prayer should take a back seat to medicine and the doctors!! Where has the faith of our christian community gone?? Just because we believe that God has blessed the world with intellegent doctors DOES NOT mean He has stopped healing through the power of prayer.
We all live in this world of uncertainty. None of us know at what precise moment that our situation may take a turn for the worse and medical care may be need to be brought in to interven. At what precise second do you (eagerbeaver) feel is the proper time to ring 911? Nine seconds after a situation starts? Seven seconds? 15? A minute? three?
From what PG said they called 911 when the girl stopped breathing. How in the world were they to know the severety of there daughter and at what presice second they should have called and stopped praying? THEY DIDNT and neither do you.

Man I am sorry this seems so blistering but I am just fed up with people calling good decent God fearing christians MURDERERS!!! Come ON MAN! We are slowly tearing the church apart from the inside out because we want the systems of the world to "lock up and throw away the keys" of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ!!!

@Brian --

Easy. Pray while you're calling 911, and call it as soon as you possibly can.

Of course, if the person in a medical situation declines medical care, then you don't give it to them. But if someone is helpless and exhibiting signs before my very eyes of a life and death situation, you had better believe I'm pulling out my iPhone and dialing 911.

Getting external help for medical care is not a sign of weakness in one's faith. Like I said it's using the gift God has blessed us with, and in my opinion, we're wrong to not utilize that gift if it's there.

With this couple, if they would have taken their kid to a doctor in the first place they would have found out exactly what ailed her all throughout her young life. Instead she was left to suffer, and all the while her parents were given a clear NO answer on her healing from the Lord.

I am merely asking Poimen to clarify his position. I think his statement was rather offensive in the way that it seems to glorify the parents' harm of their child by equating what they did with that of the Biblical prophets. Give me a break!

Be fed up with me and those who agree with me all you want, it doesn't change the fact the parents were negligent and let their child die before their eyes.

There are ligitimate points on both sides. I too think to equate these folks with Jesus and the apostles and prophets is going a step to far. However, to equake what these folks did to murder might also be a step to far.

Hypothetically here is an example. Someone in a church service asks the church to pray for them, because they are sick or the Pastor calls up those who are sick for prayer. The person tells the pastor their head is hurting. The Pastor annoits them and the church prays. The sick persons falls over dead from a stroke. At what point was the Pastor and church responsibile to call the ambulance?

When a pastor receives a call to go to someones home to pray for them, at what point is he regard to make sure the person has proper mrdical attention, or to find out if proper medical attention has been gotten by the family.

I know there will be those who think this is not an issue. but it soon may be. There are Pastors who have come close to procecution for not reporting sexual abuse of children soon enough. It may come to the point that the lawmakers would consider lack of heath care such abuse they will require the churches and ministry to be liable if they have knowledge of health issues and only pray rather than report the needed health care to the authorities. This is especially true with the rise of politicians who consider healthcare to be the right of every citizen in this country.

By the way I teach people to suffer many things at the hands of many physicians and after losing all that they have to press through the throng touching the hem of His garment. Hopefully, their Faith will make them whole.

I read that story somewhere.

Once a Doctor told me I was going to die in 6 months, but an operation could prolong my life another year. At that point I told him since he offered me no hope other than death, I could die without paying him or the hospital $150,000. I never went back to see him. This was in 1976. I was healed about 3 weeks later at the COGOP KY Convention while Elwood and Roberta Matthews were ministering. I see Doctors (seldom), but I knew in my very soul, I did not need to go back that time. I did not! God took care of me! I think probably would have died just like the Doctor said if i had trusted the doctor. Was I suicidal for not going back to the doctor. I think if we brand these people murderers, then we must clearly say I was trying to commit suicde for trusting God that He would heal me!

Ray A

Ray A

[Full Quiver]

Chris H., it is nothing like that.

[THE RAzEr]

Tomorrow, my husband is going to get up and go to his job. I really wish that we just had a level of faith high enough that we would trust God for our income, so that my husband could devote that time to prayer and Bible study instead. I really admire those that practice their faith like that and don't bend to receiving help from man.

Good point! I also belive it is a good point to ask if these parents trusted God in the court room. Did they get a lawyer, or did they just pray. I do not know, but I am curious. I would hope if they trusted God only with their daughter's life illness; they might continue to do so in the future as things apply to their own lives.

Either way, they have suffered and continue; therefore, I will pray for them!

Ray A

Ray

[Jamais Vu]

i want to ask to those who think they have more or superior faith because they do not go to doctors and/or use medicine, how do you measure your faith? and why hasnt god allowed the rest of us in on this faith-measuring cup?

im not trying to be ugly, but if your "personal faith" kills a child, your own child at that, wouldnt that be a screaming neon sign that you dont have much faith at all........since you lacked enough to keep your own child alive?

i may not have that elite super faith to where i can ignore common sense in order to inflate my spiritual ego, but i do have enough faith in god to help me take care of my family and not kill my own child.

[one love]

i want to ask to those who think they have more or superior faith because they do not go to doctors and/or use medicine, how do you measure your faith? and why hasnt god allowed the rest of us in on this faith-measuring cup?

im not trying to be ugly, but if your "personal faith" kills a child, your own child at that, wouldnt that be a screaming neon sign that you dont have much faith at all........since you lacked enough to keep your own child alive?

i may not have that elite super faith to where i can ignore common sense in order to inflate my spiritual ego, but i do have enough faith in god to help me take care of my family and not kill my own child.

I understand your point Brother but I am not sure anyone here has said that they do not go to docs or that they have superior faith. I am not sure anyone here can answer that , I have not heard anyone claim they felt this way here...... But none the less those that feel going to the doc is a lack of faith, then I wonder (as you pointed out) if the person then dies, does that show a lack of faith? I dont know.......

[RamboPreacher]

i want to ask to those who think they have more or superior faith because they do not go to doctors and/or use medicine, how do you measure your faith? and why hasnt god allowed the rest of us in on this faith-measuring cup?

im not trying to be ugly, but if your "personal faith" kills a child, your own child at that, wouldnt that be a screaming neon sign that you dont have much faith at all........since you lacked enough to keep your own child alive?

i may not have that elite super faith to where i can ignore common sense in order to inflate my spiritual ego, but i do have enough faith in god to help me take care of my family and not kill my own child.

I understand your point Brother but I am not sure anyone here has said that they do not go to docs or that they have superior faith. I am not sure anyone here can answer that , I have not heard anyone claim they felt this way here...... But none the less those that feel going to the doc is a lack of faith, then I wonder (as you pointed out) if the person then dies, does that show a lack of faith? I dont know.......

any more.

[MacUser]

This is above my pay grade.

[one love]

i want to ask to those who think they have more or superior faith because they do not go to doctors and/or use medicine, how do you measure your faith? and why hasnt god allowed the rest of us in on this faith-measuring cup?

im not trying to be ugly, but if your "personal faith" kills a child, your own child at that, wouldnt that be a screaming neon sign that you dont have much faith at all........since you lacked enough to keep your own child alive?

i may not have that elite super faith to where i can ignore common sense in order to inflate my spiritual ego, but i do have enough faith in god to help me take care of my family and not kill my own child.

I understand your point Brother but I am not sure anyone here has said that they do not go to docs or that they have superior faith. I am not sure anyone here can answer that , I have not heard anyone claim they felt this way here...... But none the less those that feel going to the doc is a lack of faith, then I wonder (as you pointed out) if the person then dies, does that show a lack of faith? I dont know.......

any more.

Anymore? please clarify, I must be missing something?

[Susie Hamilton]

This is above my pay grade.

I agree

[pastorjason]

This is one of the reasons that I for one have advocated for a change in the wordings of our doctrinal statements to a more 21 century language and perspective.

For instance we still have on the books the wording of the church is against the use of opium, morphine, etc.

It was a recreational drug in the days of the early assemblies. It is now a staple of pharmacology. I would hazard a guess that almost every family in the church has had a member of the family or at least of the church family taking opiates for pain and treatment over the last few decades.

Should we not change our statement to say the church is against drug abuse weather legal or illegal?

And though we believe in God's soveriegn ability to heal miraculously
We also believe in the use of medical treatment as God providing for his children?

[RamboPreacher]

i want to ask to those who think they have more or superior faith because they do not go to doctors and/or use medicine, how do you measure your faith? and why hasnt god allowed the rest of us in on this faith-measuring cup?

im not trying to be ugly, but if your "personal faith" kills a child, your own child at that, wouldnt that be a screaming neon sign that you dont have much faith at all........since you lacked enough to keep your own child alive?

i may not have that elite super faith to where i can ignore common sense in order to inflate my spiritual ego, but i do have enough faith in god to help me take care of my family and not kill my own child.

I understand your point Brother but I am not sure anyone here has said that they do not go to docs or that they have superior faith. I am not sure anyone here can answer that , I have not heard anyone claim they felt this way here...... But none the less those that feel going to the doc is a lack of faith, then I wonder (as you pointed out) if the person then dies, does that show a lack of faith? I dont know.......

any more.

Anymore? please clarify, I must be missing something?

There are some on this forum that used to believe that way, but not anymore. (bolded)

[Jamais Vu]

I am not sure anyone here can answer that , .

exactly......they cant. i dont know of anyone who shares their thoughts and feelings on this board that believes or promotes the sick and twisted "doctrine" of suffering for "higher faith".....but im sure someone who does feel that is lurking.

they cant answer the questions, because it is a non-biblical belief. a personal belief is supposed to be personal, therefore not promoted or 'taught' to others. a personal belief should also not affect anyone else.....so in the case of children being forced to suffer in the name of someone elses "personal belief" it no longer becomes their personal belief.....it turns into child abuse. and child abuse IS something the government SHOULD step in and enforce.

[Full Quiver]

PastorJason, do you pastor in TCoG or is your screenname just that?

[Paully_44]

Would the same opinion of religious freedom be held, if this was a practicing Wiccan, Muslum Native American etc... praying to their god while withholding medical treatment?