When did people that pray stop being part of the church?

[Brian]

Brian, your response deserves my rebuttal (and that's not a bad thing).

First I never said that you "double speak," or play both sides of the coin. You have repeatedly stated that there is a place for both prayer and medical intervention. What I have said is: to deny God's ability to use medical intervention (doctors, nurses, paramedics, etc.} is to put God in a box and tell Him that He must do it this way (the way that they believe). These people have fallen victim to one of the most miss understood, and miss taught "doctrines" in Pentecostalism. They have been taught, and teach that healing must be the kind of dynamic display of the New Testament. They have been taught, and teach that God "promises" to heal. Therefore God's healing must be of a "dynamic display!" Because of this they deny the power of God to act in any other fashion, or through other means.

Now let discuss the real victims, the children. I don't think that I need to remind you that Jesus had a special relationship with children, even going so far as to warn His apostles against hindering them from coming to Him. In addition He stated that should any bring offense (harm) to a child that it would be better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck and cast into the sea. I know of no other group of people that Jesus decreed such a gruesome death for their physical bodies. A slow death which would allow them time to understand the feeling of helplessness.

If Jesus said this should be their punishment why would I want to fellowship in a church with them?


TW

Thank you for your rebuttal TW and no, it wasn't bad.

I absolutely agree with you about Jesus giving a harsh stand against anyone who harms the children. This is not where my beef lies with this whole situation. My problem is with venomous attacks from christian believers toward anyone who may come close to being what you desribe, I said "may" come close. We can't say with any degree of certaintee that those parents are guilty of what Jesus described.
And your right that Christ offered harsh words to anyone who harms the little ones but He never told His followers to execute that penalty nor did He tell His followers to desire the imprisonment of people who may not even be at fault of true neglect and mistreatment of these children. God, and the laws of the land with take of care of anyone who acts outside the rule of law, be it God's law with Him or mans law with the courts. Still, my problem is and has always been with christians who call for vengance and bood from these people. The hardest thing to do sometimes is love. I am not saying love the parents who may actually be a fault of killing there children. But as far as I can tell these parents arent guilty of murder and they don't deserve 25 years in prison. Agree or not, that is where I stand and I shall not be moved.

[Shepherd]

Deleted by Shepherd.

[dolfan]

There is alot of talk around here lately by some who want certain CHRISTIAN PARENTS to have the book thrown at them, charged with murder, and basically put them UNDER the jail. So I'll ask you, when did those parents stop being members of the collective church body?

Some of you who have called for there arrest and imprisonment are the VERY SAME ONES who declare (rightfully so) that all saved people are part of the universal church and body of Christ. Are those parents excluded? At what point did they fall off? Where they never really saved to begin with? Let's carry on a modern day witch hunt and purge the church of these wolves in sheeps clothing!! PLEASE! GIVE ME A BREAK!

I tell ya guys I am at my witt's end with the slander and judgements and backbitting treatment of those who are suppose to be OUR BROTHERS! Like I said before, the world no longer has to try to tear apart the body of Christ cause we are doing a fine job of it all by ourselves!

Brian, let me ask this. Suppose that, as a matter of fact, a parent who claims he/she is Christian, shows every typical evidence you might use as a sort of checklist to meet the template of who one is, and then that person withholds medical care from a child that he/she should reasonably know would keep their child healthy or alive, and as a result of withholding that care, the child dies. In that case, the parent caused the child's death. I'm not arguing here that's what happened in the Kaufman case, although I did scream long and loud that they did exactly that; I also hedged a bit because an autopsy is still not released yet that would say that the baby's death was or was not inevitable regardless of medical care or no care. But, let's put the argument to a more definite set of facts as I've outlined above.

Would you think it wrong to insist on criminal prosecution in order to protect more children or in order to deter other parents from doing likewise to their kids? Is it the fact that the parents are Christians that would lead you to concluding that we should only pray for them and not hope they are prosecuted? Does Christianity then serve as a legal defense or even a moral-only defense to any number of other crimes? If so, please explain.

[EagerBeaver]

Brian,

Just as you believe that I and others have mis-represented your position in the other thread on the subject of the Wisc. family's baby death, so I believe you have grossly mis-represented the views of myself and those who agree with me.

I for one consider them Christians if they believe in Christ. But I agree with every single thing TW said.

That is not passing a judgment, and it's not being condemning. Never once did I say we shouldn't pray for the people. They deserve justice and our prayers...there is no reason they shouldn't get a large helping of both.

[Brian]

Would you think it wrong to insist on criminal prosecution in order to protect more children or in order to deter other parents from doing likewise to their kids?

Would I want criminal prosecution? No, because I don't feel it would have the desired effects you are looking for. For one, people would feel there personal religious freedoms were under attack so it would actually work against what you are trying to accomplish. they would most likely become more intraverted and less likely to share any other times they may neglect there child because in there minds it would be the "evil world" against there holy rightious living. (in there mind)

Is it the fact that the parents are Christians that would lead you to concluding that we should only pray for them and not hope they are prosecuted? Does Christianity then serve as a legal defense or even a moral-only defense to any number of other crimes? If so, please explain.

"Only pray for them" ? You speak as if that is somehow lacking in effect? Has prayer lost the ability the change the lives of people just like those parents in question? It does no good to ostrasize(sp) people like that. Education is key. Leadership taking a stronger role and more responsability for the things they have taught over the years. Then, only then will the real change come. Right now all we are doing is re-enforcing there flaud logic that medical attention means lack of faith because they feel attacked. They feel the rest of us are trying to get them to stop having faith in the healing power of Christ and turn to the doctors for there most delicate needs.

[ImaPK]

Only God can judge the actions of these two sets of parents. But they still have to answer to man's laws in this lifetime.

I agree. I also agree, for the hundreth time that calling 911 is a no brainer. I would, and like PG said they did too. My problem is not answering to the laws of the land, my problem is the venom spit out by CHURCH folks toward these parents.

Let me ask you this Brian: can "CHURCH folks" NOT display anger and outrage? If not then why are "CHURCH folks" constantly backbiting and sniping at one another? Why are there still "cliques" within the "CHURCH folks"? Why is there "politicking" within the "CHURCH folks"? The answer is simple...."CHURCH folks" are HUMAN, "saved by the GRACE of God", but still HUMAN. I'm the "sinner" here, and while I feel for the parent's loss, they deserve the "venom" spit out by ANYONE, be they "CHURCH folks" or "sinner". "CHURCH folks" can pray for these parents and their loss while still feeling anger and voicing it. My brothers get angry with me and voice it but they still love me. "CHURCH folks"(for the most part)are the same way.

[Full Quiver]

I also hedged a bit because an autopsy is still not released yet that would say that the baby's death was or was not inevitable regardless of medical care or no care.

Does it matter whether the baby would have survived in the long run? No one in that room knew what was wrong with the baby, none of them were God though they tried to play His part, and none of them know anyone's future. I have an uncle that is near 50 years old. HE was born with several serious problems. Had he been taken home he probably would have died, we can't know really. He was treated at Vanderbilt, first treatment of it's kind, and is alive still today.

[RamboPreacher]

sincere prayer (for whatever reason) is playing the part of God? or are you in reference to something else?

[dolfan]

I also hedged a bit because an autopsy is still not released yet that would say that the baby's death was or was not inevitable regardless of medical care or no care.

Does it matter whether the baby would have survived in the long run? No one in that room knew what was wrong with the baby, none of them were God though they tried to play His part, and none of them know anyone's future. I have an uncle that is near 50 years old. HE was born with several serious problems. Had he been taken home he probably would have died, we can't know really. He was treated at Vanderbilt, first treatment of it's kind, and is alive still today.

It matters legally, but I'm with you that it doesn't shrink their moral, biblical obligations. What I did was to insist they should be held to account legally, too. That might've been a bit too much, but we'll see.

[dolfan]

Would you think it wrong to insist on criminal prosecution in order to protect more children or in order to deter other parents from doing likewise to their kids?

Would I want criminal prosecution? No, because I don't feel it would have the desired effects you are looking for. For one, people would feel there personal religious freedoms were under attack so it would actually work against what you are trying to accomplish. they would most likely become more intraverted and less likely to share any other times they may neglect there child because in there minds it would be the "evil world" against there holy rightious living. (in there mind)

Brian, let me tell you, bro, people are not going to "share any ... times they may neglect their child". People who abuse their kids always justify it somehow. It is a rare exception that someone understands their wrong and puts themselves to the judgment of another voluntarily because of that understanding. We can't create a rule that serves the exception, especially one so subjective as that likelihood-to-become-introverted. And, to be perfectly frank, that whole thing "in their minds it would be the 'evil world against their holy righteous living" --- that's ignorant. That's part of the problem in the first place. You don't bring a problem to rights when you create the environment that excuses the problem. There is not "evil world" in medical care anymore than there is an evil one in getting a haircut (no matter how loudly you may sing "If Your Hair's Too Long, There's Sin In Your Heart" or whatever the song is).

And, even if holding them to account would not deter them, would we apply that failure of the deterrent effect to non-religious people in the backwoods, for example, who think they should be able to beat and rape their children because, "by golly, they're my kids and I'll do what I want"? (Yeah, that happens --- way more than you'd think.) You're not going to deter that culture by putting one heinous father in jail, or even 100 of them. So, you may have a point in the failure of deterrence, but we don't NOT hold them to account for that reason. Justice demands punishment, accountability. Now, you and I might have some reason to wish it were otherwise because it is easy to launch judgments on folks in the abstract, but in the concrete actual world, we may have some things from the past or the future that require justice be served to either of us. I acknowledge that it is serious business. Justice is more than deterrence, and where the wrong done is so blatant, so offensive as these parents in this particular case who didn't treat their child for diabetes because of a religious belief, I'm all about seeing that it's done. If these were all adults making these religious decisions for themselves and about themselves, I'd be equally adamant that there ought to be no consequence from the law, but even the law may disagree in some states and in some instances. This is not that.

Is it the fact that the parents are Christians that would lead you to concluding that we should only pray for them and not hope they are prosecuted? Does Christianity then serve as a legal defense or even a moral-only defense to any number of other crimes? If so, please explain.

"Only pray for them" ? You speak as if that is somehow lacking in effect? Has prayer lost the ability the change the lives of people just like those parents in question? It does no good to ostrasize(sp) people like that. Education is key. Leadership taking a stronger role and more responsability for the things they have taught over the years. Then, only then will the real change come. Right now all we are doing is re-enforcing there flaud logic that medical attention means lack of faith because they feel attacked. They feel the rest of us are trying to get them to stop having faith in the healing power of Christ and turn to the doctors for there most delicate needs.

When I say "only pray" I mean prayer alone as opposed to bringing them to justice in the legal system AND prayer. Pray for them, please. They need it. Pray that their eyes will be opened and that they'll see the error of their ways, pray for their safety while in prison, pray for whatever goodness God may bestow on a prisoner in this case. I'm all for praying of the good of these people. I don't want them thrown-away, either. But, your concern with flawed logic is flawed, too. (And, mine is open to flaws, no doubt. It won't take someone long to point them out.) Feeling that the rest of us are trying to attack their faith is not a reason to let them off the criminal justice hook. It may not even cause them to do differently with another child. But, if that excuse is enough of one to relieve them of liability, then all sorts of other excuses are at least as plausible as this one would be, and bad people all over the place would be free to do bad things to their children without fear of recourse. That only would not be deterrent (which is your concern), it would be a green light.

So, I ask my question again to you:

Is it the fact that the parents are Christians that would lead you to concluding that we should only pray for them and not hope they are prosecuted? Does Christianity then serve as a legal defense or even a moral-only defense to any number of other crimes? If so, please explain.